Sprint Treo 650 vs. BB

[Drakeford]

Go to the Nextel site and look at features for the Treo 650. The BB doesn't compare. It does everything and more. It just doesn't have the walkie talkie feature. But paying $5.00 more a month, you can talk to all Nextel and Sprint customers without using your minutes.

My only question; is the cost for the data plan the same as Nextel?

[Nextel User]

why dont you try them both and let us know which is actually better?

hmm one crashes ten times a day and one has push email.....

what is written and what is actual........ nothing more said

[itmediaco]

I had a Palm Vx back in the day (and wireless modem) and loved it, but Palm OS is really past its prime. The BB is far superior to Palm and Symbian. The PocketPC-based Treo 700 will present some real competition, especially as these devices move to high speed networks.

[ace_2005]

^ Are you serious to say that the BB is far more superior to Palm and Symbian. I will save you the floggins this time but that was the craziest thing I have heard all year... WTF

[dlautman]

^ Are you serious to say that the BB is far more superior to Palm and Symbian. I will save you the floggins this time but that was the craziest thing I have heard all year... WTF

As an IT guy at my company, I can say that BB software and hardware is way easier to manage and support, compared to Palm.

[ace_2005]

^So you install Palm software on a server? Could you be ever more specific in this outburst!

[dlautman]

Ace: I apologize for being unclear. I am talking strictly about PC syncing software (about half of our users still physically sync their BBs since we have old models).

[Mark Rejhon]

^ Are you serious to say that the BB is far more superior to Palm and Symbian. I will save you the floggins this time but that was the craziest thing I have heard all year... WTFTrust me.... While Palm and Symbian has their advantages, BlackBerry OS is actually better Palm OS for many of us. I used Palm since 1997 when I had a PalmPilot professional. I was very fast at Grafitti, clocking at 40.1 words per minute in a Dom Perignon speed-writing contest. But trust me on this one that BlackBerry is surprisingly faster once you become familiar with it:

BlackBerry Speed Calendar Tricks (http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=2018)
BlackBerry Tips, Tricks And Keyboard Shortcuts (http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=19)
BlackBerry Myths Busted: The Modern 2005-Era BlackBerry (http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=4019)
Why BlackBerry? Versus Treo/PocketPC (http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?p=3494#post3494)
BlackBerry Thumb Touchtypist Guide: Type Without Looking (http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=800)

And by the way, did you know BlackBerry can multitask? Hold the :alt: key and press the Esc side button. (It's like Windows Alt-Tab). You cannot do that on a Palm.

There are device efficiences - I can run VeriChat instant messaging chat software 24/7 nonstop for over 75-100 hours nonstop on a single battery charge, and it functions MUCH better than the Treo version of VeriChat, with much longer battery life.

Also, an example of a "discovered efficiency" on BlackBerry is that I can type "Crej<enter>" from the main screen right away on the BlackBerry without touching the thumbwheel and poof, I am already Composing an email to Mark Rejhon .... no taps needed, no wheel spins needed, no wheel clicks needed. Very powerful keyboard shortcuts to do almost everything on BlackBerry, can easily be memorized too.

Yes, Palm is better in many ways. MP3 is better on Palm. Video is better on Palm. And the Treo 650 screen at 320x320 is amazingly sharp. There are things you can cherrypick that Palm is better at. And some people find it painful to thumbtype (muscle difficulty) and find a stylus easier. There are always exceptions. Granted, it is true, the best Palm models are much better than the worst BlackBerry models. There's quite a lot of overlap.

However, I find a BlackBerry a very good PIM Organizer now (provided it uses BlackBerry OS 4.0 or later) - much better than older BlackBerries used to be. I thumbtype much faster than I can use Grafitti. And I love the way I can have wireless synchronization.

Yes, there's stuff like AgendaToday and DateBk5 for handhelds, but alas, there's also third party BlackBerry goodies such as PocketDay for BlackBerries which serves a similiar "PIM-enhancement" function.

If your judgements of BlackBerry is based on older units such as 7750 or 7230, and comparing it to newer Palm units, you may get a poor impression. Try a few months with a 7250/7290/7520 (the three good models). (The 7100 also counts too, but I am not too fond of SureType).

[ace_2005]

Mark these are comparisons to the hardware! BB is hardware, OS and software! Why not key in on these points so that this person gets what he needs. Does the BB OS and SW compete with the growing Giants ie GOOD, PALM, Microsoft, Symbian?
Need I go on?

Everyone knows that RIMM has this market because they were the first here. And we all know that they are losing ground as we speak especially when NOKIA drops the bomb with the GIANT.

You too will drop your Berry and go with the change of this technology. Or you might just hold on to your piece of toast until it decays. Are you still using a typewriter? That my help you as you type a little faster on your BB.

[Mark Rejhon]

It's certainly possible I will jump after the RAZRberry - the Motorola "Q" device. I am really looking forward to trying it out.

But for the foreseeable future (at least the next 12 months), it seems more realistic I may upgrade to the 8700 series, now that I am hearing some pretty attractive things about it. The looks is "different", much like the 7100, but I crave functionality.

The more distant future, I have no idea.

I certainly remember people saying that Palm had the monopoly and PocketPC would never succeed (after Microsoft's earlier Windows CE 1.x and 2.x failure to succeed). Look at what happened and now PocketPC PDA's took a large marketshare a few years later. However, Palm still commands a pretty significant part of the market and is enjoying a resurgence.

I'm not closed minded.

I thumb touch-type at 72.4 words per minute (363 keypresses per minute) on the BlackBerry thumb keyboard. The iPaq PocketPC 4355 keyboard and the older Treo 180 keyboards come close, but I can't type nearly fast enough on a 600/650 keyboard. However, the Moto Q device is very promising and I can't wait to try it out.

I also own an iPaq for multimedia usage (mainly to play my videos) along with ThinkOutside's excellent folding Bluetooth keyboard, and I work at a company that has put about 10 different devices on my desktop (I program software for many of the platforms). It's not like I don't get a chance to try fancy devices like the Treo650's, the Audiovox 6600's, etc. I've got access to them on my job.

On a full desktop QWERTY keyboard, I clocked a max 142 words per minute in the Huckleberry Finn 1-minute test at http://www.typingtest.com ... (Usually, I did about 135-136 WPM). This puts me in the top 10. I am a deaf user which means I have to use the keyboard to talk on the phone, and I can type almost as fast as speech.

Yes, RIMM definitely has some serious competition problems to deal with, and how many % of the market they keep in 24 months from now, depends on decisions that they make today versus their competitors. But it is far from a sure-fire chance that RIMM will dissappear. That's not impossible -- but the same can be said true of other platforms (with the sad stories of Palm that you have been hearing, but even Palm has not dissappeared.) Each platform has core users that will keep propping up the platform - look at Apple Mac's, for example, they are still excellent platforms (even though I am a WinTel user, I am no bigot - I can appreciate the evolution of Apple's platform to a more Linux-like platform, and many can't deny that Apple has rescued themselves with the iPod, for example).

Anyway, I can guarantee you that RIMM will suffer but I know history such as Palm and Apple, and please watch your denigration of other members. While I am easygoing, the comment "Are you still using a typewriter?" is uncalled for. It does not cross the line, but it is not appreciated.

(Yeah, I bet RIMM stock might be an excellent short right now -- Apple was once a wonderful short at one time -- but this is completely irrelevant to the discussion of Sprint versus Treo 650 since not even PALM nor RIMM are in bankruptcy-level grave danger in the foreseeable future, so this is completely moot. Historically, most people bashing RIMM are either shorts or have a specific reason to knock down the company, so this is why I mention this additional paragraph.)

[Mark Rejhon]

ace_2005, according to this post you made (http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?p=43414), it appears you migrated from a batch of old BlackBerries to a batch of newer devices. No wonder you have changed your tune to being anti-BB; since older models of BlackBerry compare unfavourably in many ways. RIMM's simply being slow at certain kinds of innovation.

GIANT is going to definitely be very interesting and I'll be monitoring this. But historically, hype often fizzles and things are "merely great". It'll be an exciting year (2006) with all the BlackBerry clones. On the other hand, if it is as revolutionary as it claims, it'll simply drive RIMM nuts and eventually bring out something more interesting (albiet slowly, like a year later). Core users such as government is profitable enough to keep RIMM alive till then.

Each device have their own advantages, but it is kind of premature to put BlackBerries to the grave, much like it's premature to put Apple Mac's and non-Treo Palm's to the grave.

Goodlink (you resellers, if you are reading this, please stay out of this thread, now that I am wading into this in this thread.) is definitely useful software that has made it more comfortable to use other devices than BlackBerry, but it hardly means the extinction of BlackBerry. Market percentage shifts definitely will occur though (I agree with you on that one though). Anyway, pretty interesting to read your history of your posts, and I noticed you have a negative attitude towards some of the moderators being too pro-BB. Well, duh, this is a BlackBerry board. But I'm not closed minded. You may have been affected by other closed-minded people, though, and throwing me into the same net...

[ace_2005]

Ok excuse the typewriter but you make it same like everyone wants to get a device so they can type a 1000 wpm. Compare what I asked have in all of my previous posts (below) and leave out how fast you can type I am sure everyone knows that by now, its posted a thousand times. Moving forward compare the

BB apps to Palm apps.
BB OS to Palm OS.
BB Push to Palm with Goodlink Push.

Thanks

[Mark Rejhon]

Moving forward compare the

BB apps to Palm apps.
BB OS to Palm OS.
BB Push to Palm with Goodlink Push.

ThanksAmen - Definitely. Plusses and Minuses on both sides, in each category, depending on your needs. Written numerous, numerous times too. More Palm-biased users will distort towards Palm, and more BB-biased users will distort towards BB. Clear winners on both sides here, depending on which area you try to argue. Enough that neither is going extinct anytime soon, albiet market percentage shifts will definitely continue to occur.

This is a BlackBerry forum, duh. I highly recommend www.treocentral.com for Palm/Treo. ;-)

[KonTiki]

Well You knew it had to be coming so here:

http://www.gizmodo.com/a/v4/i/d/tue.gifhttp://www.gizmodo.com/a/v4/i/d/20.gifhttp://www.gizmodo.com/a/v4/i/d/sep.gifhttp://www.gizmodo.com/a/v4/i/d/2005.gif
Palm Treo Class Action Lawsuit (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/pdas/index.php#palm-treo-class-action-lawsuit-126639)

READ MORE: Cellphones (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/cellphones/index.php), Lawsuit (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/lawsuit/index.php), PDAs (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/pdas/index.php), Palm (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/palm/index.php), Smartphones (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/index.php), Treo (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/treo/index.php)



http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/treo.jpgEither the Treo really stinks, or Palm pissed off the wrong law firm. A class action lawsuit filed in California today claims that Palm Treos: “suffered from extremely poor sound quality and buzzing, choppiness, speakerphone problems, poor and broken screens, phone crashes, software crashes and electrical surges. When Palm replaced phones in response to these problems they replicated the problems by providing consumers refurbished phones subject to identical issues.”

The Treo is in good company, of course.

Palm Being Sued Over Treo (http://gigaom.com/2005/09/20/palm-being-sued-over-treo/) http://www.gizmodo.com/a/v4/i/permalink.gif (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/pdas/palm-treo-class-action-lawsuit-126639.php)

[kitmoni]

Ok excuse the typewriter but you make it same like everyone wants to get a device so they can type a 1000 wpm. Compare what I asked have in all of my previous posts (below) and leave out how fast you can type I am sure everyone knows that by now, its posted a thousand times. Moving forward compare the

BB apps to Palm apps.
BB OS to Palm OS.
BB Push to Palm with Goodlink Push.

Thanks
Ace - just one quick question -- Why are you here? I think you typed in the wrong URL (albeit, 2 wpm). You need www.treocentral.com (http://www.treocentral.com). I'm a former T650 owner that is VERY happily converted. I have zero resets, a device without cracks, and one that never freezes. Just in case you're a little slow in leaving, here are some answers to YOUR questions...

BB apps to Palm apps -- Palm has more of them, sure. But each user has to decide what's right for their purpose, and apparently more of them have chosen BB over Treo.

BB OS to Palm OS -- Are you even asking this question? No resets, no freezes, bluetooth actually works, no replacements needed (treocentral stories - "I'm on my 6th device..."). This OS is industrial strength BECAUSE they don't have a gazillion plug ins to it.

BB Push to Palm with Goodlink Push - market share, baby. I tried to use the Palm in my company and the IT guys laughed at me. Why get Goodlink when we already have BES in place and it integrates with Exchange better. How many of the Fortune 500 use BES vs Good? There's your answer.

Sorry to be so pissy, but this is a BB forum. It's not the place to come and push a Palm agenda. It's the place to make your device work better for you. If you are so sold on Palm, there's a really good forum for that (see above).

BTW, you will notice the posts on this forum are generally of a different content. Much fewer "URGENT - PLEA FOR HELP!" posts where the device has crashed, or reset, or lost data, or has some glitch because they installed their 87th extra program while they were streaming audio through pTunes and locked it up. We're just fine here, Ace. Once Nokia takes over the world, we'll be glad to join the dark side. But for now I'll stick with the Ewoks.

[KonTiki]

Kitmoni, well said, and to you ace_2005 dont let the door hit you in the @<hidden>$$ on the way out.

[Longwalker]

Just my two cents...
At my company, we recently tested both the BB 7100t against the Treo 650 for enterprise mail and calendaring. While the Treo is a very nice device, bundled with SprintPCS as an enterprise mail and calendaring it is FAR behind the BB and BES solution. With the Treo, you can not create a new calendar event and "reconcile" it to your enterprise calendar...Treo users would call secretaries and have them create calendar events.
As a device, the Treo screen has a higher resolution than the 7100t, I preferred the 7100t against the Treo for Google Maps (got lost in Whittier CA). The Treo also has the ability to download and open Word and Excel documents via Documents-To-Go (I know there are products for the BB that reside on the BES that "stream" the Word/Excel files to the BB, but we didn't test these) but the Treo can't open PDF files without being converted by the Adobe for Palm during a local desktop HotSync. The BB has ability to "stream" these from the BES via DocHawk. As a Systems Administrator, I prefer the control over business files this "streaming" approach provides...we don't have sales spreadsheets on Treo-like devices being forgotten in airports (and they are forgotten!) and we have hourly SAN snapshots and daily tape backups of all of these files while still providing user read/write capability.
One of the multi-tasking features the BB has over the Treo that has not been mentioned yet the BB's quad-channel abilities, which allows the BB to be on a phone call (like to a telco that has cut circuit to a store) AND allow realtime access to enterprise resources (via VPN and Idokorro). VERY handy feature as I can be verifying system outages (or applying solutions) and still be able to update frantic managers via phone.
Overall, the BB is a much better enterpise tool than the Treo.

[kitmoni]

Nice post, and interesting Longwalker. Although I'm at a technology company, I'm still on the user side, so it's interesting to see what goes into the evaluations. A couple of notes on your post...

-- Attachments are VERY easy on BB. No Docs to go to purchase, it's native and I can see Word, PDF and Excel files.

-- I forgot to mention the wireless calendar sync that BB uses. Way cool feature that allows me to create a meeting while on the road, and have it sync to my corporate calendar wirelessly. Very sweet.

If you've seen my posts before I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but the biggest difference is that the BB is an Industrial Strength device when compared with the T650. Good information...

[kitmoni]

And, from another thread, one more reason why BES is the corporate tool -- looks like Good is moving out of the Enterprise market and going to rely on the carrier channel to support their growth from here on...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/13/good_confirms_layoffs/

[WolfKeeper]

Either the Treo really stinks, or Palm pissed off the wrong law firm. A class action lawsuit filed in California today claims that Palm Treos: “suffered from extremely poor sound quality and buzzing, choppiness, speakerphone problems, poor and broken screens, phone crashes, software crashes and electrical surges. When Palm replaced phones in response to these problems they replicated the problems by providing consumers refurbished phones subject to identical issues.”

I have multiple clients on their fifth 650s. No surprise here.

[ace_2005]

You guys have great posts when comparing BB software to the Treo Hardware. WIthout Goodlink a Treo stands no chance againdt the BB. But with it then you have to wave of the future.

Longwalker your first post is completely valid but sorry to hear that you evaluated the wrong enterprise solution. When I am finish here you would will be saying "ace told us so".......

[ace_2005]

Kitmoni

Rimm did the same thing that Good did several years ago. They are now a force in this Market and everyone is teaming up with them. You will see this when NOKIA drops the bomb on RIMM. And most of you bandwaggoners will be dropping the Berries like you got the runs.

[KonTiki]

Ace_2005 why do you bother, we are happy here, no matter what you say and or do we wont change. Please go to your Treo forum and be happy as well. We mean no ill towards you, We are informed, we can read, we do not need you to interpret for us. Thank You.

[Mark Rejhon]

Remember, not everyone here uses BES or GoodLink. More than 50% of RIM's market is retail.

[Kriz]

For all those Treo users posting should I switch?? Read this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mc/treoownersfilelawsuitagainstpalm

[paulfr2]

Ace... I've been watching your posts lately and have decided that you're either...

a) a pimply-faced hormon-craze teenager living with mommy and daddy
b) a whiny little ***** who is not happy unless you're b**ching up a storm [hence all of your whiny posts about how the Treo is soooooo much more l33t compared to the berry, which means that the Treo R0x3rs and ow3ns BB... give it up]

- or -
c) all of the above

People like you in other forums are referred to as trolls... so why don't ya troll your a55 out of here and go back where ya came from.... [ probably mama's n*pple for all we know ]

[yahtzee]

Ace... I've been watching your posts lately and have decided that you're either...

a) a pimply-faced hormon-craze teenager living with mommy and daddy
b) a whiny little ***** who is not happy unless you're b**ching up a storm [hence all of your whiny posts about how the Treo is soooooo much more l33t compared to the berry, which means that the Treo R0x3rs and ow3ns BB... give it up]

- or -
c) all of the above

People like you in other forums are referred to as trolls... so why don't ya troll your a55 out of here and go back where ya came from.... [ probably mama's n*pple for all we know ]

Actually, this should clear it up....

http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=15835

[kitmoni]

Actually, this should clear it up....

http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=15835
That is just TOO funny. Buh bye, Ace. I was actually going to respond to him and question why he's such a Good homer when he said himself that his CIO "forced" him to go there. Now I see he was just a Good employee trying to make sysadmins feel like the CIO might be knocking on their door at any minute to throw away all the device and software investment in BES/BB.

I actually DO work for a Fortune 500, and I can tell you there is NO chance we're looking at Good. I've talked at length with IT and Sr. Management about it. I was actually trying to get them to move toward Good before I understood our implementation of BES, and the costs associated with exchanging 2,800 devices, and platforms, which require UP FRONT costs (which in todays business environment will kill more deals than it creates). Bottom line is, we had a fraud in Ace, and the reality is that the BB market share is continuing to drive the rest of the market.

[Good_Guy]

I actually DO work for a Fortune 500, and I can tell you there is NO chance we're looking at Good. I've talked at length with IT and Sr. Management about it. I was actually trying to get them to move toward Good before I understood our implementation of BES, and the costs associated with exchanging 2,800 devices, and platforms, which require UP FRONT costs (which in todays business environment will kill more deals than it creates). Bottom line is, we had a fraud in Ace, and the reality is that the BB market share is continuing to drive the rest of the market.

Just as a clarification, outside of the devices, the up-front costs for Good vs Blackberry are similar, if not lower in some cases.

[kitmoni]

Just as a clarification, outside of the devices, the up-front costs for Good vs Blackberry are similar, if not lower in some cases.
How many CIOs or CFOs will allow you to take only "part" of the conversion costs into consideration when calculating ROI or TCO? I suggest only those on their way out the door. Total Cost of Ownership means you have to look at ALL costs to make a change (hard and soft). I hope you guys aren't pinning your hopes on getting a CIO to ignore buying $500,000 worth of devices so your ROI model will finally work. I think your best bet is those companies that haven't moved to BES yet. I could expand on that, but then you would have to pay me (which is an option - PM if you're interested :smile: ).

[Good_Guy]

Not to get this too far off track, but if you want to look at ALL costs for a complete TCO, I can show how GoodLink has a lower TCO, especially on the soft costs. As for hard costs, I fight that battle daily and win a lion's share of those discussions. I have displaced BES installations where the devices were provided at no cost to the customer and I, personally, have never lost a comparision in a new account where BES and GoodLink were tested side-by-side. Now, I agree that in larger BB deployments where there has been a substantial investment in the platform, the battles are tougher as the investment has already been made, however, it is far from impossible to win. Look, BB is the 800 pound gorilla in all of this and Ace's comments aside, this is a marathon not a sprint and RIMM has a large lead, but is not insurmountable.

To close, I actually prefer to call on accounts that already have BES in place. They already "get" the concept of wireless communication and the value it brings. We then are able to compare solution vs solution as opposed to selling the value of wireless communication.

[Mark Rejhon]

Keep this one on track guys. Good job keeping civil so far but I am watching. ;-)

I'm sure Good can have lower costs in many cases. I see situations of TCO where one platform is favoured. For me, it's definitely the BlackBerry, but even if it was even, I'm still attracted to the best BlackBerry models over the best non-BlackBerry models. Motorola Q and future devices may change that, but it looks like my next device is almost certainly a BlackBerry model. Now, the one after the next, depends on how well RIM can "keep up"...

[kitmoni]

Wirelessly posted (Thumpers 7250: BlackBerry7250/4.0.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1)

I agree, Mark. My response is based on the title of this thread, T650 vs BB. Good will probably agree that Treo is not the device to pin your future on. There are more soft costs involved in fixing, replacing, exchanging Treos than there are with Blackberries. I agree that there may be other phones out there which might improve reliability, but then that would be a new thread. :)

[Good_Guy]

Agreed to point. I think the tone of the last few comments would have us agree that hardware is going to be the driving factor in RIMM v. Good, or Treo v. BB, etc. However, IMHO the slam on the reliability of the Treo is a tired argument that does not carry as much weight as it once did. I have read many posts here regarding the reliability/quality of the BB devices. I think what that does, on both accounts, is say that shipping the quantity of devices that both Palm and BB, they are going to ship a few bad ones, and unfortunately, the folks who have the quality issues (perceived or otherwise) are the ones who are going to crow the loudest.