Is push email the main reason you stick with BB? [Archive]

pretzelb

01-19-2009, 08:12 PM

I'm just curious how many people stick with their BB because of the push email feature. From what I can tell BB does a great job of push email that no one else has caught up with yet. I'm wondering if that is why people stick with their BB (those who aren't forced into a BB due to work) or if there is another reason. I ask because I see some other phones with similar (keyboard) if not better (web browsing) features and wonder how many just keep with BB for the email.

akosnitzky

01-19-2009, 08:14 PM

Wirelessly posted (Its All About the U!)

reliable product

audit

01-19-2009, 08:15 PM

tsac

01-19-2009, 08:21 PM

The real reason is once you have one they send tendrils into your body and you can never remove it or you will become very very ILL. Really , just ask anyone, it’s true, trust me.:razz:

kjjb0204

01-19-2009, 08:25 PM

OS stability, phone clarity is the best of any phone I've owned, email...many other reasons.

tsac

01-19-2009, 08:27 PM

I still say it's the nasty Tendrils:razz:

kjjb0204

01-19-2009, 08:32 PM

I still say it's the nasty Tendrils:razz:

Of course, those too. I meant, in addition to the tendrils....

ezrunner

01-19-2009, 08:40 PM

Wirelessly posted (hope is everything!)

Chicks dig guys whom carry a BB

Security
Email reliability
Call quality
Blackberry messenger
Kick butt forums

zimstyles

01-19-2009, 08:51 PM

Wirelessly posted (hope is everything!)

Chicks dig guys whom carry a BB

Security
Email reliability
Call quality
Blackberry messenger
Kick butt forums

I completely agree... For me the platform is steady, good support great devices that come out on a regular basis.

mas90guru

01-19-2009, 08:53 PM

Mostly the reliability of the email

unbb

01-19-2009, 09:25 PM

OS stability, phone clarity is the best of any phone I've owned, email...many other reasons.

I agree completely. My other phone is windows mobile...and after a few hours with the curve, I wanted to ditch the windows phone. Weeks later, I feel the same, and will probably switch it to another curve (maybe the new one).

Also...KILLER battery life compared to other smartphones I have had.

TeritaM

01-19-2009, 10:03 PM

the push email is what hooks you, but its the bbim that keeps you addicted. at least in my case.

pretzelb

01-19-2009, 10:17 PM

Push email isn't vital to me because I had it via Chatteremail on a Treo. Security is #1 to me and that's what the BB provides me. You will never find another Smart Phone that provides the security that a BB provides.

I hear this alot but I don't think a BB offers anything that can't be had on a Win Mobile device, which is capable of the same security features AFAIK. Unless there is something that RIM does that I am not aware of.

pretzelb

01-19-2009, 10:21 PM

OS stability, phone clarity is the best of any phone I've owned, email...many other reasons.

OS stability is something I can understand. But I could counter that the BB OS isn't doing all that much compared some other of the other OS's, which would mean it should totally be more stable.

But phone clarity? Is that really a function of it being RIM / BB? Isn't that totally hardware and carrier? I mean, would I really get better phone clarity with Verizon if they were terrible in my area just by switching from a non smart phone to a BB? It's statements like phone clarity that make me wonder.

pretzelb

01-19-2009, 10:25 PM

Also...KILLER battery life compared to other smartphones I have had.

Well battery life should be a function of what's running right? The sales rep told me in the store to be sure to close my browser (and not just back out) on my Curve when I was done otherwise it would stay active and drain my battery. Besides the fact that this seemed a very stupid design in my opinion it points out that if other phones work the same way then maybe it's not really the phone but the user who is expecting too much from a battery. I will admit that the devs should make it so an app does not drain a battery when not in use or when the user backs out of it, but if they all behave that way and users refuse to basically "turn off the lights" then can we really blame the phone for draining the battery?

Sarra

01-19-2009, 10:35 PM

ummmmm...whats push email??
i noticed that i dnt know anything on the BB :oops:
i truely need a crash course :razz:

pretzelb

01-19-2009, 10:41 PM

ummmmm...whats push email??
i noticed that i dnt know anything on the BB :oops:
i truely need a crash course :razz:

It's where email is pushed immediately to your BB no matter what email account you have. For example, with an iPhone you can set it up with a Gmail account but you have to launch the email application manually to check for email. With a BB, you don't do anything - it just receives the emails and then alerts you when they arrive.

unbb

01-19-2009, 11:24 PM

Well battery life should be a function of what's running right? The sales rep told me in the store to be sure to close my browser (and not just back out) on my Curve when I was done otherwise it would stay active and drain my battery. Besides the fact that this seemed a very stupid design in my opinion it points out that if other phones work the same way then maybe it's not really the phone but the user who is expecting too much from a battery. I will admit that the devs should make it so an app does not drain a battery when not in use or when the user backs out of it, but if they all behave that way and users refuse to basically "turn off the lights" then can we really blame the phone for draining the battery?

I don't close my browser or other apps. I do happen to have two batteries, so every two or three days it gets "rebooted" when I switch to the fresh battery. I am more careful with the winmo and it's battery lasts less than half as long (with NO voice compared to the BB doing all my voice work).

The real question, what are you really after? Personal justification to save yourself $30 a month? I think the carriers changed that game when most smartphones cost the same additional per month now. So, if you want someone to say it's ok to get something different, here you go. Get what makes you happy.

(can I buy your sprint curve when you move on? :D I will even trade my q9c)

audit

01-20-2009, 08:09 AM

I hear this alot but I don't think a BB offers anything that can't be had on a Win Mobile device, which is capable of the same security features AFAIK. Unless there is something that RIM does that I am not aware of.

BBM Chat is 100% Secure. Show me a Win Mobile device that has that. I've also crashed Win Mobile devices during security audit's of companies with simple exploits.

pretzelb

01-20-2009, 08:10 AM

I don't close my browser or other apps. I do happen to have two batteries, so every two or three days it gets "rebooted" when I switch to the fresh battery. I am more careful with the winmo and it's battery lasts less than half as long (with NO voice compared to the BB doing all my voice work).

The real question, what are you really after? Personal justification to save yourself $30 a month? I think the carriers changed that game when most smartphones cost the same additional per month now. So, if you want someone to say it's ok to get something different, here you go. Get what makes you happy.

(can I buy your sprint curve when you move on? :D I will even trade my q9c)

From the reviews I've read, it seems like the more graphical the phone is, the more battery drain is reported. Even the new graphical BB models seem to report battery life similar to iPhone or WinMo phones. Then again, AFAIK the BB is the only phone with an auto shut off and turn on function which can only help promote battery life.

You are wrong about the cost being the same, at least for Sprint. To get a BB you must pay $30 a month. For other smart phones except for the Instinct all you need (I think) is a $15 a month data charge added to your line. So in my case, owning a BB costs twice as much per month.

As to what I'm searching for, I suppose I'm trying to understand what I am getting with my Curve that I may not get elsewhere. As this is my first pda / smart phone I have nothing to compare. It does handle email nicely, and the sound clarity is good, but I am not sure it's twice as good at email and sound as something else. I'm not even sure it's exactly the same. I'm not even sure if it does something unique that others cannot.

pretzelb

01-20-2009, 08:17 AM

BBM Chat is 100% Secure. Show me a Win Mobile device that has that. I've also crashed Win Mobile devices during security audit's of companies with simple exploits.

I assume that BBM chat is on the BB network and deals with either a BES or BB to BB talk. If not, let me know.

The chat is secure because they encrypt via SSL or something? Is that right? If so, what would prevent the admin of a WinMo device network from doing the same? Wouldn't that be like saying Amazon.com is secure because they use SSL for their transactions, but then ignoring that someone else like NewEgg.com also uses SSL? Or to be more accurate, someone else could use SSL for their website if they really needed to be secure.

The point being, I'm not sure there is a technology advantage that BB has (either hardware or software) that isn't also possible with a WinMo device. If you're a business I think you can set up the same security for your phones in WinMo. It's just a matter of whether or not you chose to.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing either. I can't see the need for it personally, which may mean that it's a feature not meant for someone like me. I had not heard of it before so I do thank you for bringing it up.

kjjb0204

01-20-2009, 08:37 AM

OS stability is something I can understand. But I could counter that the BB OS isn't doing all that much compared some other of the other OS's, which would mean it should totally be more stable.

But phone clarity? Is that really a function of it being RIM / BB? Isn't that totally hardware and carrier? I mean, would I really get better phone clarity with Verizon if they were terrible in my area just by switching from a non smart phone to a BB? It's statements like phone clarity that make me wonder.

By OS stability, I mean that my BB doesn't lock up on me and has no known viruses out there. WinMo can't say the same.

Phone clarity - you said it yourself, it IS the hardware (BB) and carrier. I've had many different phones on Verizon in my area, and by far, the call clarity of my BB is the best. I've had Samsung, Moto and LG phones, and none sound as clear as my BB.

pretzelb

01-20-2009, 09:45 AM

By OS stability, I mean that my BB doesn't lock up on me and has no known viruses out there. WinMo can't say the same.

Phone clarity - you said it yourself, it IS the hardware (BB) and carrier. I've had many different phones on Verizon in my area, and by far, the call clarity of my BB is the best. I've had Samsung, Moto and LG phones, and none sound as clear as my BB.

Like I said, it's hard to argue stability since from what I've read the BB's don't crash. In under a week, mine did lock up for a long time when I tried to browse a to-do application on the web but it did not require a hard reset. As far as a virus goes, I kind of see that as a function of popularity and usability. The more open something is the more susceptible it becomes to a virus. I'm sure I'm more vulnerable on my home pc with Vista than with Linux but with just some minor care I can avoid it. Then again, if I wanted to write a virus to infect others I'd probably target Vista over Linux just because there are more MSFT machines out there.

But, if you hate crashes then I certainly can see going BB.

For clarity it becomes fuzzy for me. Is RIM really the maker of the hardware? Isn't the hardware, which is the major reason for sound clarity afaik, made by someone else who can also be found in other phones? I honestly don't know.

These days it seems like it's hard to pin a phone to just one company. I would assume even an iPhone has hardware found in other phones and Apple seems the worst at locking things down. I thought I also read the latest touch screen BBs (Storm?) had parts manufactured from some other companies, but maybe I made that up.

CanuckBB

01-20-2009, 10:07 AM

I assume that BBM chat is on the BB network and deals with either a BES or BB to BB talk. If not, let me know.

The chat is secure because they encrypt via SSL or something? Is that right? If so, what would prevent the admin of a WinMo device network from doing the same? Wouldn't that be like saying Amazon.com is secure because they use SSL for their transactions, but then ignoring that someone else like NewEgg.com also uses SSL? Or to be more accurate, someone else could use SSL for their website if they really needed to be secure.

The point being, I'm not sure there is a technology advantage that BB has (either hardware or software) that isn't also possible with a WinMo device. If you're a business I think you can set up the same security for your phones in WinMo. It's just a matter of whether or not you chose to.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing either. I can't see the need for it personally, which may mean that it's a feature not meant for someone like me. I had not heard of it before so I do thank you for bringing it up.

Encryption from end-to-end out of the box, built in to the OS. Sure you can add SSL to some product on a WM device, but if it's an added layer, it can be gotten around.

And for a business, the level of control over the device afforded by BES and IT policies can't be beat.

pretzelb

01-20-2009, 10:36 AM

Encryption from end-to-end out of the box, built in to the OS. Sure you can add SSL to some product on a WM device, but if it's an added layer, it can be gotten around.

And for a business, the level of control over the device afforded by BES and IT policies can't be beat.

If that's true, I'm not sure it's listed as a feature for every product. From the specification page for various BB phones I keep seeing this about security:

Support for AES or Triple DES encryption when integrated with BlackBerry® Enterprise Server

This implies to me that the phone can support this encryption if you turn it on - not that it's always there. But I could be reading into it. If it were really always on then it would benefit them to say that and not "support for".

I also think you are incorrect when saying that "adding" encryption is somehow weaker. Logically that makes no sense to me. If the exposure is your data as it crosses from one device to another, then it's impossible for an encrypted stream to be any less secure in between the devices. AFAIK it's binary and the data is either encrypted or it's not. It's not like some extra coat of paint that covers the data which can be peeled off because it was just slapped on. The only way a Win Mobile or any other device could be less secure is if it didn't offer the same encryption strength, which it sounds like they do. And you will note that the BB quote on the topic says it's only included with the BES, meaning you have to have the BES and someone has to turn that feature on, which implies it's not just always there.

Plus, I think this also possible with WinMobile devices. There is a white paper that discusses all the options for WinMobile and AES and Triple DES are on the list. The white paper does seem to point out that version 6+ is required for most of the security options. But, if the main security bullet is AES and Triple DES then it sounds like both are possible and both are added on which would make both hackable.

Also, I am not sure the BES offers anything that can't be done with Windows either, at least from a high level. I think in the MSFT world it's called System Center Mobile Device Manager or MDM. If you think about it, it's not very different than managing computers on a corporate network which has been a feature with Microsoft server products for a while. I may try to dig up a comparison chart to see if there is a feature list comparing the two enterprise solutions.

takeshi

01-20-2009, 10:44 AM

I'm wondering if that is why people stick with their BB (those who aren't forced into a BB due to work) or if there is another reason.
Nope -- reliability is my top reason. All the features in the world don't matter if I can't count on my device.

For some reason RIM's competitor's don't seem to get it. A true "Blackberry killer" needs more than just a qwerty keyboard.

jbairdjr

01-20-2009, 10:59 AM

I love the push email, but the overall device reliability does it for me. I have used Palm, Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, and other devices. When I went to the Blackberry platform in 2003, I never looked back.

StuartV

01-20-2009, 11:02 AM

StuartV

01-20-2009, 11:04 AM

Oh, and to answer the OP's question, my reasons for having and keeping a BB are:

- the integration with my Exchange mailbox (i.e. push email AND OTA sync of Contacts and Calendar)

- ease-of-use. WinMo seems to have just as good integration with Exchange. But, I tried a Samsung Omnia (directly comparable to the BB Storm) and the ease-of-use on it was TERRIBLE.

jbairdjr

01-20-2009, 11:11 AM

I have used the 8330 since Alltel got the device.
My phone is on all day everyday, as I am on call.
I cant remember the last time I had to pull my battery.
I don't have the storm yet, so I cant speak for that device.

pretzelb

01-20-2009, 03:44 PM

What is "reliability"? To me, it means I can leave my phone turned on and use it normally indefinitely. My Motorola RAZR was "reliable".

My Pearl required a battery pull about once a week to keep it running without problems.

My Storm is taking a battery pull at least once a day to work correctly.

I would not classify either of my Blackberries as "reliable".

I usually take "reliable" with a grain of salt. I think for some, one crash per year is horrible. I also think that when people like a product or company they gloss over the bad and may forget some crashes or even blame themselves instead of the product.

It's all what floats your boat. But it does make it hard to separate reality from hype. If I were going on what I read from some people then I could expect every WinMobile phone to require a reset every other day or more. Kind of like how I'm supposed expect my Vista computer to constantly crash and have tons of unfixed bugs as reported by the Apple commercials, yet my parent's Mac seems to crash more.

pretzelb

01-20-2009, 03:49 PM

Nope -- reliability is my top reason. All the features in the world don't matter if I can't count on my device.

For some reason RIM's competitor's don't seem to get it. A true "Blackberry killer" needs more than just a qwerty keyboard.

Interesting point. It's like a needs heirarchy really.

For me, I can give up some reliability to have a device with more features. For example, I could probably get a computer device with a rock solid OS to only handle emails that is very reliable. But, for me it's not really worth it unless I can also work on documents and spreadsheets and browse the internet. If that means the OS (and hardware) has to become more unstable then it's worth it.

It's all about what's most important to you I guess.

unbb

01-20-2009, 11:15 PM

You are wrong about the cost being the same, at least for Sprint. To get a BB you must pay $30 a month. For other smart phones except for the Instinct all you need (I think) is a $15 a month data charge added to your line. So in my case, owning a BB costs twice as much per month.

As to what I'm searching for, I suppose I'm trying to understand what I am getting with my Curve that I may not get elsewhere. As this is my first pda / smart phone I have nothing to compare. It does handle email nicely, and the sound clarity is good, but I am not sure it's twice as good at email and sound as something else. I'm not even sure it's exactly the same. I'm not even sure if it does something unique that others cannot.

My bad on the cost, I most recently looked at the other carriers offerings since I have a sprint contract on my one. I'm at the moment torn if I would pay an extra $15/month for a BB over a regular smartphone....on my secondary phone. Main phone I would in a heart beat.

If you want to try other phones, I would be willing to swap my Moto q9c with you temporarily if that helped you find what you want...but I really think you'd stick with your 8330, so is there a reason? Unless the $15/month is something....then a lot of smart phones may be suitable. Don't get me wrong, I loved my moto until I got the BB.

kdallen

01-21-2009, 05:47 AM

takeshi

01-21-2009, 09:54 AM

What is "reliability"? To me, it means I can leave my phone turned on and use it normally indefinitely. My Motorola RAZR was "reliable".
My definition is exactly the same. My BB's rarely (a few times a year) need battery pulls. Clearly your experiences have been very different for whatever reasons.

Interesting point. It's like a needs heirarchy really.

For me, I can give up some reliability to have a device with more features.
Some people are willing to compromise more than others. I have little tolerance for having to deal with issues with my smart phone. I spend a lot of my time resolving other people's PC issues at work and at home. I don't want to do that with my own smart phone and in my experience that has been an issue with Palm and WinMo. YMMV as this thread indicates. I have had significantly less trouble with the various BB's I have owned over the years but I guess I'm also much more familiar with them than anything else which could very well be skewing my experiences.

Some things also require more compromise than others. For example, I'm willing to compromise a bit more on my cars as "fun to drive" is more of a priority but I still expect a good bit of reliability from them. Things do get a bit intertwined as "at the shop" or "waiting by the side of the road for AAA" definitely conflicts with "fun to drive". ;-)

You are wrong about the cost being the same, at least for Sprint. To get a BB you must pay $30 a month. For other smart phones except for the Instinct all you need (I think) is a $15 a month data charge added to your line. So in my case, owning a BB costs twice as much per month.

This is minor -- and not to hijack the thread -- but I'm using the same $15 plan I've had for the last 4 (Palm Treo) years on my new Curve with no problems.
You're kind of in special niche though. 1. I guess you don't want/need push email, the BB browser, or any other features that require access to the BB APN and 2. You're able to get a $15 data plan to work -- not everyone can.

StuartV

01-21-2009, 10:39 AM

My definition is exactly the same. My BB's rarely (a few times a year) need battery pulls. Clearly your experiences have been very different for whatever reasons.

And it seems that your experience is somewhat unusual. As evidenced by the fact that there is a sticky at the top of this very forum titled:

Losing Call Logs, SMS or Emails? Optimize your BB! How To Setup for max free memory!

the gist of which is that BBs have a memory leak and the only resolution is to do a battery pull. I think the "standard" recommendation on this forum is to do a battery pull once a week, just to "avoid problems".

mrobert

01-21-2009, 11:22 AM

There is a certain mystery around BB's :)
It's the definate sign that you are no longer living with your parents :)

petphotos

01-21-2009, 01:34 PM

My first smartphone and the more I use it and learn about it, the more I love it. The Bold is a real quality piece of equipment.

rugmankc

01-21-2009, 02:18 PM

I like the the UI compared to other phones I have tried. Haven't used WM phones though. But, with email and calendar it is exceptionally smooth. An example is copy and paste. I do a lot of that when I can't complete a task. The options are all preset to what the next logical step would be. Like copy, select, paste and save are all pre-highlighted when I click through the copy and paste steps. This may be the same on some other phones. But, the ease with which I can do all the email and calendar functions on my 8700g is very satisfying. I would take that phone with multimedia capabilities over any other phone I have used. IMHO :smile:

Ken

fiestito

01-21-2009, 03:55 PM

I would say the bb OS its good for me, i feel like im in control of the phone not the opposite. Also the price-quality deal was really good for me.
I prefer my pearl 8100 than a Nokia N95, the only thing i miss from the N95 is the gps, for the rest the pearl 8100 its better for me.

misterbulldog

01-21-2009, 05:32 PM

I'm in it for the email. I get lots of personal email I want to repond to quickly. I had very few issues with my 8703e. I have a Storm now and most of the problems I have I cause my self. Fun, fun, fun!

rambo47

01-21-2009, 05:43 PM

1. Email handling. Multiple accounts all being pushed automatically and instantly to your mail folder.

2. Reliability. The more my Treo froze up, the less I could rely on it. I need reliable communication, not a toy that may or may not be working at any given time.

3. Integration of PIM functions. Mail, Address Book, Tasks, and Calendar all work beautifully together. Add in some of the REXwireless (www.rexwireless.com) apps and you have a dominant platform.

Although the BB platform has some multimedia capabilities, they're rudimentary. The camera is mediocre, the music player serviceable but unremarkable, and the web browser is poor. If these are where your priorities lie then you might be better served with something in the Nokia N-series genre.

But if it's industrial strength communications and security you care about, Blackberry has no equal.

berri_item

01-21-2009, 09:45 PM

I dont have a blackberry. Instead, i have only E51.
What's different push email on blackberry device, and blackberry connect on E51?
What's different push email on blackberry device, and timed e-mail checker on Nokia?
Usually 3G consumes more batt power. Is 3G on blackberry for push email on all times? It's should drain more batt power right?
Why BB is more secure? Show me the link? I want to check out.

SteveO86

01-21-2009, 10:14 PM

I dont have a blackberry. Instead, i have only E51.
What's different push email on blackberry device, and blackberry connect on E51?

Not sure, never messed with BlackBerry connect.

I dont have a blackberry. Instead, i have only What's different push email on blackberry device, and timed e-mail checker on Nokia?

With pushed email it hits your device when it hits your mail box in GMail/Yahoo/hotmail/etc, the timed email checker on the Nokia simply check for email x minutes.

Usually 3G consumes more batt power. Is 3G on blackberry for push email on all times? It's should drain more batt power right?

The 3G connection on the BlackBerry for all data/Blackberr traffic, battery life should still be very good on the Bold. (3G BlackBerry)

Why BB is more secure? Show me the link? I want to check out.

BlackBerries on a BIS are fully secured, 256 bit AES and 3DES encryption, on BIS everything is encrypted in RIM's NOC.. There really any virus for BlackBerry *knock on wood* of course you should take normal precautions not to install any unknown apps, etc... If you go to BlackBerry.com you can do a search to find all the indepth information you want/need.

berri_item

01-21-2009, 10:25 PM

Thanks for the answers.
Since it pushed by RIM since the email hits yahoo-email, the GPRS/3G connection to APN blackberry.net always active, right?
Does it consumes power like browsing ? How many hours blackberry can live on those batt just for e-mail?

End-to-end security looks nice.
So why Obama's blackberry device might concern US national security in some internet site?
I think those security just for emails, not for calls, the usual GSM right?

mrobert

01-22-2009, 05:25 AM

One of the most important things I like about BB push, is the compression that drastically reduces the amount of data used for email, while roaming on some foreign network.

I was out of the country for 4 days recently, and my costs for having the BB on all that time, was 2.69 Euros ($3.5)
Back in the old days, It was enough to do a Send/Receive from a normal mai client 2-3 times, and run up that costs.

BB saves me around $100 each year in roaming costs, for using my email.

rambo47

01-22-2009, 10:02 AM

audit

01-22-2009, 10:13 AM

They need to be able to record all calls and messages but the Blackberry makes that impossible.

If he's on a BES then it's not impossible for them to do that. The White house does have a BES so it's just a matter of creating a special IT policy to change what he can/can't do on his Blackberry.

rambo47

01-22-2009, 10:16 AM

I dunno if he can get a special policy. Although he is the President, you know how difficult those IT guys can be with policies. :)

pretzelb

01-22-2009, 09:23 PM

With all but the AT&T-branded Bolds, you can turn off 3G if you want and use only 2G. Battery life is still great with 3g on all the time for me, however.

Blackberry Connect has issues handling email attachments, plus it's a known battery killer. The Blackberry device is very efficient and a much better solution.

My understanding of President Obama's Blackberry dilemma is that it's TOO SECURE. They need to be able to record all calls and messages but the Blackberry makes that impossible. I recall reading somewhere in another discussion that Blackberrys use 2048-bit encryption, making it about the most secure platform anywhere.

According to this from the UK (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/21/barack-obama-blackberry-national-security) it's more of a matter of tracking all what the presidents says, and the BB isn't certified for top secret by the NSA. There's something by General Dynamics that is.

This also says the same thing (http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/obama_will_get_his_blackberry.php) but implies RIM is creating something extra special just for the president. They also mention the GD device approved by the NSA.

So the rules may be changing but until Obama started talking about his BB, the devices weren't good enough for the NSA.