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paulmorley
11-03-2005, 09:05 PM
Post your San Fran experience here tonight if you can. By all means someone please show us a picture of the 8700c in it's holster. Still haven't seen one yet.

AlbertoM
11-03-2005, 09:13 PM
Or next to a 7100!

barjohn
11-04-2005, 01:44 AM
They have two holsters. A plastic and a leather holster. The plastic one comes with it and the leather will probably be an option. Both were very nice and high quality. I wish I had taken my camera as I think they would have let me take pictures. We were told we would be getting them before they are available to the general public. They just don't have them in the channel yet as even Cingular folks at the show did not all have them nor could they get them yet. Only a handful of people actually had one as their device.

bperkins
11-04-2005, 07:03 AM
Thanks John. Was the holster black or the same color as the 8700? Nice to know B2B will have the units before the 21st.

cuniman
11-04-2005, 08:35 AM
John:

Since you seem to be as much of a fanatic about keyboard useability as I am: How was the keyboard on the 8700c and how does it compare with the 7200 series' keyboard? I agree with your other posts on this subject that the HP6515 keyboard is a disappointment and, in my view, the Treo's keyboard (even the 650's) is pretty difficult to use compared to the BB 7200's.

Many thanks.

Charlie

AlbertoM
11-04-2005, 09:34 AM
Thanks John. Was the holster black or the same color as the 8700? Nice to know B2B will have the units before the 21st.
DId he say "we" as in B2B users, or "we" as in those in attendance?

barjohn
11-04-2005, 10:45 AM
He said we, as those in attendance. The impression I got was about a week before the general public. He made comments, like we would be the first kids on the block with the newest gadget (or toy) I don't recall his exact words.

The new keyboard has keys that are the same size as the older 72xx series but they are slightly concave in places with a slight slope in strategic places that is supposed to be ergonomic to the thumbs. I was told that they had conducted extensive testing on the new keyboard. The key spacing is less and I found it easy to accidently press more than one key while typing. I don't know from a brief test how quickly I can adapt but I can tell you it is way better than the 6500 or Treo 650.

The holsters I saw were black. I was told by the RIM person that has Cingular as their customer that they had their choice of colors (6 I think) and picked this one. He told me he was surprised that they didn't pick the black as that was his favorite.

The Hermon chip set's baseband side supports UMTS so I asked the natural question, will this device be capable of supporting UMTS when Cingular roles it out. RIM, Cingular and Intel all told me it is just a matter of new firmware as the chipset will support the HSPDA that Cingular will be rolling out. Timing for the new firmware was not something they would provide. The speed is expected to be 400-700kbps in real world performance! Another surprise is support for a new Bluettoth device for security. I will write about it later when i have some time.

richard371
11-04-2005, 12:51 PM
Yea I think they have a hit on their hands. The device seemed smaller and thinnerthen in the pictures. I think it will be pocket friendly. I also think the Cingular color scheme looks better in person then in the pics. I really love how fast the 8700 is with the new Intel chip etc. I made a test call to a co worker and we could both hear each other pretty well considering how noisy it was in the room. The web browser is nice due to the EDGE network.

Stinsonddog
11-04-2005, 12:51 PM
In case anyone wonders what the event voucher says. I don't think they will be trying to sell you a plan. The contact is to arrange for delivery.

anaida
11-04-2005, 06:42 PM
Can i chat with my friends from aim with the Black Berrry if i am going to make download?

richard371
11-04-2005, 06:58 PM
Yes Verichat and IM+ run in the background.

barjohn
11-04-2005, 07:30 PM
I thought I would take the time to give you all a preliminary "First Look" review now that I am back at my home.

Smaller, thinner, brighter faster, louder, clearer and much better! Frankly, I was surprised at how much smaller it is. I laid one on top of my HP HW 6510 and the 6510 looked huge compared to the 8700. The 8700 has managed to keep a significant amount of keyboard realestate and yet have a decent sized screen. The screen size is about the same size as the screen on the HTC Wizard family turned into landscape mode though it appears slightly less rectangular.

I spoke with numerous executives from Cingular, RIM, and Intel and asked them numerous questions about the device and in particular whether the device solved some of the issues that have been raised on this board. The questions I asked were:

1. How is the phone's reception?
2. How is the volume on the ear piece as this has been a constant complaint many users have expressed, especially in a noisy environment?
3. How is the mic at handling noise cancellation as again this has been a major complaint of broken and unintelligble speach?
4. How loud and clear is the speakerphone and is it really useable as such?
5. How tough and scratch resistant is the screen plastic cover?
6. How hard is it to type on the new keyboard layout?
7. How is the Bluetooth volume and clarity?
8. How will they handle sending the phone book to a car's phone book?
9. How good is their Bluetooth security?
10. How is the EDGE speed?
11. How will the product handle new offerings coming such as UMTS (HSPDA) and Push to Talk?
12. How is the holster in real life use?
13. Do you have a leather holster?
14. Why the grey color and not Black?

While I only played with the units briefly I will answer these questions with preliminary answers and later when I do a full review I will follow up.

1. I was told phone reception is very good. I had no way to verify this so this one will have to wait.
2. The volume on the earpiece is much improved and I could hear clearly in the noisy environment of the event.
3. I was told that the mic and noise cancellation were major targets of their effort and that it was much improved. I asked if I could call my voicemail and test it. They allowed me to make the test. Here is the recording so judge for yourself. I think it is excellent and a big improvement.

8700 Sound Recording: http://www.barjohn.com/Public_downloads/8700recording.wav

4. The speakerphone is really loud and very clear. I was impressed.
5. I was told the new screen is very scratch resistant and tough. I would still put a screen protector on it.
6. I was told about all of the testing they had done on the new keyboard and how the design is ergonomic to the way the thumbs function; however, I was not as fast on the unit and it will take me a while to really make my judgement. As I have mentioned in other posts the keyboard is far easier-- out the gate-- than the Treo or HP units.
7. I was told that the Bluetooth is much improved but I did not get an opportunity to conduct any tests.
8. The phonebook will be handled similar to the way the phonebook is stored on the SIM card name and number. Only one number to a name.
9. I was assured that their Bluettoth security was very good and I was told about a new CAC card reader that is a Bluetooth device you hang around your neck with your CAC card and you can use it with the phone to support SMIME for digital signing and encryption of your email. It really sounded neat as if you leave the phone and get out of range it locks the phone and unlocks it when you are back in range and the range can be set from 2' to 30'.
10. I was told (but did not test on this device) that the system latency was significantly reduced and that real world throughput of 130k was expected. I have tested their EDGE network with the HP and it is pretty decent. Not EV-DO but a big step up from GPRS.
11. Since I new that the new Intel Hermon chip supported UMTS I asked if there were plans to provide a firmware upgrade to the phone that would add Cingular's HSPDA form of UMTS to the device. I was told that there were. Further, I was told that unlike the European version that is only delivering 240k, and only if you are standing under the tower and the only user, they expected 400-700K in real world numbers. This is exciting news because it means the device won't be obsolete next year as Cingular roles out HSPDA. I asked about push-to-talk and that is being rolled out too but I didn't get as clear an answer as to whether the device would support it or not.
12. & 13. I played with the holster, both the plastic and the leather holster. I liked the working of the plastic one better becasue the leather one completely covered the unit making access more difficult and the plastic one worked in the traditional slide it up way. However, I think this is one phone you may consider just sticking in your pocket without a holster.
14. Cingular had their choice of 6 colors and picked the grey one. The rep that handles Cingular and was responsible for working with Cingular was surprised as he thought they would pick the black one.

The bottom line is that I am excited about this unit and can't wait to get mine. This looks to be a real keeper and it will be hard to beat in the market place. All converged device are compromises and the question is are the compromises one you can live with. This unit has the best integration and resolution of those compromises I have seen.

Edit: I thought I would add. The feel of the device is very solid and comfortable in the hand and the difference in size doesn't make it look or feel like you are holding a brick to your head when you use it. It is what the 7100 should have been. It feels very natural in the hand and is very easy to use. The added thinness is just the right amount to make it feel like you can stick it in your pants pocket and not have a bulge you might not want to explain showing.

barjohn
11-04-2005, 07:31 PM
Stinsonddog, why didn't you come up and introduce yourself? Where did you get the voucher? I was among the last to leave and no one was at the table to give them out.

wirelessandy
11-05-2005, 04:19 AM
2. The volume on the earpiece is much improved and I could hear clearly in the noisy environment of the event.
3. I was told that the mic and noise cancellation were major targets of their effort and that it was much improved. I asked if I could call my voicemail and test it. They allowed me to make the test. Here is the recording so judge for yourself. I think it is excellent and a big improvement.

8700 Sound Recording: http://www.barjohn.com/Public_downloads/8700recording.wav


BarJohn, once again... great job and good thinking to make a recording! (y)

I was really concerned about the earpiece call volume. Now I shall (im)patiently wait for an 8700 to make an appearance in a Cingular store...

Stinsonddog
11-05-2005, 07:43 AM
That's what I meant by not planning so well. I did look for you but since I didn't know your real name and and didn't bring a copy of your photo, I never really "found" you in my mind. Sorry about that. I should have sent you a photo. I did like the your recording. My experience too. I have higher hopes for the voice quality here.

Stinsonddog, why didn't you come up and introduce yourself? Where did you get the voucher? I was among the last to leave and no one was at the table to give them out.

Stinsonddog
11-05-2005, 07:46 AM
I never saw the leather one. What do you mean it completly covered the unit. My BB made leather one for the 7280 was great. Open at the top, you grip it on the side and pull. The one rep I saw with a leather holster said it was not the official leather one.

12. & 13. I played with the holster, both the plastic and the leather holster. I liked the working of the plastic one better becasue the leather one completely covered the unit making access more difficult and the plastic one worked in the traditional slide it up way. However, I think this is one phone you may consider just sticking in your pocket without a holster.

Stinsonddog
11-05-2005, 07:47 AM
When I left I got a black bag with Lance's book, a womens BB folio, a CD and the voucher in it. I wouldn't worry though, as contact should be based on attendance. Just follow up with the rep that got you the invite.

Stinsonddog, why didn't you come up and introduce yourself? Where did you get the voucher? I was among the last to leave and no one was at the table to give them out.

richard371
11-05-2005, 02:46 PM
John on my PC your voice sounds a little crakely. Is it just my pc? When I called my cowoorker from the show she said I sounded ok.

barjohn
11-05-2005, 03:41 PM
No, it is how it was recorded. Considering the noise level in the room, that is not bad. I almost wanted to shout and my voice was just about gone by the end of the evening from trying to talk above the noise level. I was very impressed. I suspect your friends wouldn't have noticed that slight crackle in normal conversation since they are familiar with your voice and the way the brain processes sound is to fill in the gaps and filter out the distortions when it knows how something should sound. (This is well known acoustic phenomenoum) Only with a stranger would you actually notice it because the brain doesn't know what to expect.

richard371
11-05-2005, 03:53 PM
That sounds right. Coming from the 7100t anything will sound better. It's ironic but I lost my 7100t last night. I hope the 8700 comes soon. The anticipation is driving me nuts lol.

barjohn
11-05-2005, 05:42 PM
I too can't wait. I didn't think I would be this excited about the device but after having one in my hands and seeing the improved phone, it won me over.

richard371
11-05-2005, 06:26 PM
Yea seeing it in person really made a difference then looking at the pics. Now I lug around the 7100t(which I just lost) and my 650. When I go out at night I just carry my RAZR. Hopefully the 7100 will replace all 3 :) I really don't like things strapped to my hip. John were you the guy that recommended the velvet martinis? I met a guy off the forum that I think was you from the photo but then I had a few drinks lol.

barjohn
11-05-2005, 07:08 PM
I was the one drinking the Berrytinis (Blue colored)! Did you mean the 8700? It seemed small enough to carry in your front pocket. I came in carrying my HP HW6510 in my front pocket and the 8700 was a lot smaller.

richard371
11-05-2005, 07:37 PM
Yea I meant the 8700 it looks very pocket friendly.

occupant
11-07-2005, 05:31 PM
Richard, if you are talking about the "Velvet Smash" then that was me. I was chatting with someone for quite some time during the end part of the evening and I believe I conned him into ordering the drink I had just invented for the event.

To those not in addendance, although the bars were well stocked and open late, they did not have much variety. Not being interested in the odd coctails they had featured (something cingular-named and something blackberry-named) I had the bartender cobble together something on the fly. It turned out not inoffensive so I gave it a name, got others to order it, and later on that night had the bartender at the Tonga Room make me one.

Good times.

Jeff

barjohn
11-09-2005, 10:03 AM
Here is some new info I just received from an executive at RIM that had read my preliminary review on the 8700c:
You might want to tell your viewers that the battery life is considerably compromised if the unit is not seated in a holster. There is a magnet in there that puts it into hibernate

Thought you all my want to know.

anthonymoody
11-09-2005, 10:08 AM
Barjohn,
Thanks for all this info. Re: the phonebook situation (1 name = 1 number). Does anyone else find this preposterous when NO pim software on the market operates this way? Why would RIM do this?

TM

AlbertoM
11-09-2005, 10:09 AM
Here is some new info I just received from an executive at RIM that had read my preliminary review on the 8700c:
You might want to tell your viewers that the battery life is considerably compromised if the unit is not seated in a holster. There is a magnet in there that puts it into hibernate

Thought you all my want to know.
John
Did he say what the difference is? The sleep mode magnet is true of all modern BlackBerries and has been for a while. While it does have some moderate influence in battery life, it does not have that great an impact as all it does is shut down the screen immediately and change to an in-holster profile (which can include hanging up). In another words, if your profiles are not set to change, say from ring loud when out of the holster to vibrate when in the holster, all it really does is shut off the screen which one can accomplish with time out settings.

This is why so many people use their BB's in a pocket. It should have minimal rather than "considerably compromised" impact on battery life.

barjohn
11-09-2005, 10:18 AM
While he didn't say why and this is pure speculation on my part, I am guessing that the Intel Chip has a hybernate mode so in addition to the screen being turned off (a high power user) it may hybernate that 312Mhz processor. Also, remember that the screen backlight is not controlled by a timer but instead by a light sensor. Guess what that light sensor senses in your pocket? Think it might be dark in there? This might also explain why the Cingular gal I saw with one had it in a leather pouch with magnet in her purse.

map
11-09-2005, 10:21 AM
Barjohn,
Thanks for all this info. Re: the phonebook situation (1 name = 1 number). Does anyone else find this preposterous when NO pim software on the market operates this way? Why would RIM do this?

TM

I'm confused about this too. Don't all other BB products allow more than one phone number per phonebook entry? My 7100t sure does. I hate the though of going back to what amounts to my old Nokia TDMA phone where I had to have entries like "John - Home" and "John-Cell" - that would stink.

barjohn
11-09-2005, 10:29 AM
Let me clarify. I am refering to the way it will transfer info to a handsfree Bluetooth address book. There is no standard way for Bluetooth units in vehicles with each vendor going his own way. As a result, this was the way it would be transferred to the car units. NOT the way the 8700 would store information.

AlbertoM
11-09-2005, 12:27 PM
While he didn't say why and this is pure speculation on my part, I am guessing that the Intel Chip has a hybernate mode so in addition to the screen being turned off (a high power user) it may hybernate that 312Mhz processor..
Good speculation and a strong possibility, as most Intel chips have that feature.

Also, remember that the screen backlight is not controlled by a timer but instead by a light sensor. Guess what that light sensor senses in your pocket? .
Again, that makes sense. I have a Casion WaveCeptor solar watch, which has a feature that if enabled, turns the backlight on if the watch is moved from the horizontal to about 25 degrees, i.e., the action of flicking your wrist towards your face, but only if it is dark. For people that wear long sleeve shirts, the watch thinks it is always dark and it will hit the battery hard during a day's routine activities, which is why I do not have that feature enabled. I would expect that a loose 8700 in a pocket would think it was dark all the time.

Think it might be dark in there? .
Yeppers.

This might also explain why the Cingular gal I saw with one had it in a leather pouch with magnet in her purse.Absolutely, and I agree. Thanks!

That would be an argument against non-OEM holsters without magnets.

sfo
11-20-2005, 03:12 PM
Re: SF Experience

I'm not a fan of Cingular. In my area of the city, popping in a SIM card to, say, a Nokia makes calls chancy at best. However, the 7290 from Cingular always worked well on e-mails.

The 8700 somehow works great on both emails and calls. Amazing. This device is truly tight.