The Great Race: EDGE 8700 vs. EVDO 700w

[gadgetman]

Today I compared the speed of downloading web pages on a BB8700 with EDGE and a Treo 700w with EVDO. I made sure that they started the hunt for the websites at the same moment. I made sure that the 700 was receiving EVDO.

I tried about eight websites. All of them downloaded faster on the 8700. Sometimes the 8700 was as much as ten seconds faster. This may surprise some people. It certainly surprised me after all that I have read about EVDO.

I'm sure someone will respond with a technical explanation for this. Maybe RIM compresses webpages or something like that. Whatever the reason, based on my test, the 8700 downloads websites faster than the 700w.

(I was pretty underwhelmed with the 700 although there are some nice features.)

[coreyg510]

I had a bb 7290 and then decided to use a treo 650. When I heard that Palm was putting windows on their devices I came right back to the BB using the 8700. I have never been a big fan of the windows platform. IMO it limits the capability of the treos.

[athreya]

Today I compared the speed of downloading web pages on a BB8700 with EDGE and a Treo 700w with EVDO. I made sure that they started the hunt for the websites at the same moment. I made sure that the 700 was receiving EVDO.

I tried about eight websites. All of them downloaded faster on the 8700. Sometimes the 8700 was as much as ten seconds faster. This may surprise some people. It certainly surprised me after all that I have read about EVDO.

I'm sure someone will respond with a technical explanation for this. Maybe RIM compresses webpages or something like that. Whatever the reason, based on my test, the 8700 downloads websites faster than the 700w.

(I was pretty underwhelmed with the 700 although there were some nice features.)


the way to test it is through a bandwidth website not otherwise..you are perhaps the first person in the whole world who feels EDGE is FASTER than EVDO...it doesnt seem technically possible. Can you do this and let us know?

2) Does Cingular allow DUN or tethering?

[gadgetman]

I know EVDO is faster than EDGE, but there is more to downloading websites than just the speed of the connection. Maybe someone else can perform a similar test and let us know.

[dwlace01]

I know EVDO is faster than EDGE, but there is more to downloading websites than just the speed of the connection. Maybe someone else can perform a similar test and let us know.

IMO the test that you did tells me what i need to know. What is the point of having this ultra fast evdo connection and not being able to use it. If for whatever reason the treo 700 runs taht slow, blame it on the connection speed or whatever but if its slower its slower...period.

on a side note, i have hardly ever heard anything good about a windows based device. they have a long way to go to get that going in the right direciton and where the 700 might be a step in the right direction, i think they still have miles to go.

[coreyg510]

IMO the test that you did tells me what i need to know. What is the point of having this ultra fast evdo connection and not being able to use it. If for whatever reason the treo 700 runs taht slow, blame it on the connection speed or whatever but if its slower its slower...period.

on a side note, i have hardly ever heard anything good about a windows based device. they have a long way to go to get that going in the right direciton and where the 700 might be a step in the right direction, i think they still have miles to go.



Well put.

[gadgetman]

I am keeping an open mind about the 700. Some features are quite good. The autocompleting of words is just great. I really like that. I think the screen is not that much different than the 8700 - not better or worse. It has a camera, which I want, but the images on the screen are quite disappointing - not that much better than the 600 as far as I could tell. It has streaming audio and video which is neat.

The 700 froze on me twice while I was trying it in the store - it just got stuck in Internet Explorer. I had to go to settings, storage, close programs, or something like that, just to close the Internet Explorer program after it got stuck. It's too "busy" for its own good.

The BB has a clean simple interface.

The 700 is not for me but it ain't terrible and it does have a cuteness factor. Athreya should get a 700w, because he's craving for it.

[ceebz]

Test a 7130e against the 8700. I have, and the 7130e is sometimes 3 times faster.

[gadgetman]

Both the 700 and 8700 use 312MHz processors. I have been checking on the Internet since I started this thread and it seems that RIM uses a compressing proxy server and downloads compressed versions of the web pages. Presumably, that's why the 8700 downloads web pages faster than the 700, and the 7130e downloads faster than the 8700.

[athreya]

I am keeping an open mind about the 700. Some features are quite good. The autocompleting of words is just great. I really like that. I think the screen is not that much different than the 8700 - not better or worse. It has a camera, which I want, but the images on the screen are quite disappointing - not that much better than the 600 as far as I could tell. It has streaming audio and video which is neat.

The 700 froze on me twice while I was trying it in the store - it just got stuck in Internet Explorer. I had to go to settings, storage, close programs, or something like that, just to close the Internet Explorer program after it got stuck. It's too "busy" for its own good.

The BB has a clean simple interface.

The 700 is not for me but it ain't terrible and it does have a cuteness factor. Athreya should get a 700w, because he's craving for it.

Gadgetman,i agree i probably am craving for an upgrade from my current 7290 and 7105 to something else..whether it is the 700w or the 8700 is the question..you forget the 700 does Skype, which to my mind is a killer App! Sadly im told Google talk is only configured for chat and not voice on the 8700.

Wish you could check that for us and tell us how they work...

Lastly you have been silent on DUN which is an advantage of the 700w as well.

[CingularMK]

Blackberries have always been behind on the Network speeds. When EDGE was brought around on-top of GPRS, It took until 2 months ago for the 8700 to utilize it. Im a definate BB fan, Once a BB is on the market with the UMTS network for cingular, its game over for every other competitor. UMTS/HSDPA runs (and I've seen it) 1.02mb/s connection speed on a device, and 1.21mb/s on an Aircard. UMTS is the fastest availible data network (Averaging 500-900kbps) And will be rolled out nation-wide (hopefully) by the end of this year. Hopefully a UMTS Blackberry will be soon to follow.

[gadgetman]

Athreya: I think the Treo 700w would work much better for you than an 8700. Why are you even thinking about an 8700? You clearly want the bells and whistles on a 700w.

[athreya]

Athreya: I think the Treo 700w would work much better for you than an 8700. Why are you even thinking about an 8700? You clearly want the bells and whistles on a 700w.

if that were true i wouldnt have three blackberries vs. one treo today!

i want broadband, skype / google talk, push email, and a GOOD keyboard. ability to email and hear voice notes and the ability to project a PPT through a projector are the other frequently used apps.

treo's keyboard looks way too cramped to me. Display and push email are weak or else i may have tried it out

[athreya]

Blackberries have always been behind on the Network speeds. When EDGE was brought around on-top of GPRS, It took until 2 months ago for the 8700 to utilize it. Im a definate BB fan, Once a BB is on the market with the UMTS network for cingular, its game over for every other competitor. UMTS/HSDPA runs (and I've seen it) 1.02mb/s connection speed on a device, and 1.21mb/s on an Aircard. UMTS is the fastest availible data network (Averaging 500-900kbps) And will be rolled out nation-wide (hopefully) by the end of this year. Hopefully a UMTS Blackberry will be soon to follow.


couldnt agree more. But im not sure UMTS will be rolled out this year. Do you have an authentic source?

[mobilehavoc]

From what I have read, EVDO has higher latencies than EDGE which could explain the results.

If you actually did a bandwidth test that takes into account the latencies and actually tests the throughput, I'm sure EVDO would win.

Still as stated in the end, it's all about real-world tests...if the 8700 on EDGE is faster, then go with it...nothing wrong with it at all :)

[gadgetman]

EVDO undoubtedly wins when it comes to streaming - which of course the 8700 can't do.

[phatboy]

Test a 7130e against the 8700. I have, and the 7130e is sometimes 3 times faster.

I agree...I have both as well and the EDVO is much faster.

The only fare test would be the 8700 vs the 7130e...I can can already tell you which one of mine is faster... (y)

[athreya]

I agree...I have both as well and the EDVO is much faster.

The only fare test would be the 8700 vs the 7130e...I can can already tell you which one of mine is faster... (y)

can you do VOIP and tell us the quality, latency etc? That would be a big help!

[gadgetman]

I see that I am not the only one who has found that the 8700c downloads web pages faster than the Treo 700w. On another thread in this forum, there is this entry by birdiebo:

"I had the opportunity to compare my daughter's Treo 700 with my new 8700, and it seemed to me that web-browsing was faster and easier on the 8700."

So that confirms it. The 8700c browser is faster.

http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=25051

[athreya]

I see that I am not the only one who has found that the 8700c downloads web pages faster than the Treo 700w. On another thread in this forum, there is this entry by birdiebo:

"I had the opportunity to compare my daughter's Treo 700 with my new 8700, and it seemed to me that web-browsing was faster and easier on the 8700."

So that confirms it. The 8700c browser is faster.


one swallow or for that matter two, dont make a summer. EVDO is eons faster than EDGE. BB compresses web pages giving you a illusion of speed

http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=25051

[CingularMK]

couldnt agree more. But im not sure UMTS will be rolled out this year. Do you have an authentic source?

Yes, I work for Cingular Wireless as a Data Tech. We just went through UMTS Training/Rollout dates.

[athreya]

Yes, I work for Cingular Wireless as a Data Tech. We just went through UMTS Training/Rollout dates.

and so when is that? Can you give us some idea?

Is the 8700 UMTS enabled?

[CingularMK]

No, thats what I was saying. EDGE has been availible for over 2 years from what I can remember, And just 2 months ago RIM put out a EDGE enabled BB, It will probably be another year or so before a UMTS enabled Blackberry hits the market, and about UMTS, it's already rolled out in 16 markets nationwide, Off the top of my head they are as follows:

Seattle
Tacoma
Portland
San Fransisco
San Diego
Las Vegas
Chicago
Atlanta
Dallas
Houston
Austin
Phoenix

And assorted others, I thinks Detroit is on the list too. For a definitive list browse around the cingular site.

[athreya]

No, thats what I was saying. EDGE has been availible for over 2 years from what I can remember, And just 2 months ago RIM put out a EDGE enabled BB, It will probably be another year or so before a UMTS enabled Blackberry hits the market, and about UMTS, it's already rolled out in 16 markets nationwide, Off the top of my head they are as follows:

Seattle
Tacoma
Portland
San Fransisco
San Diego
Las Vegas
Chicago
Atlanta
Dallas
Houston
Austin
Phoenix

And assorted others, I thinks Detroit is on the list too. For a definitive list browse around the cingular site.

so you are saying the reason one cant use UMTS is because RIM devices arent enabled yet? So if i buy a UMTS supported device from abroad will it work on cingular now?

[athreya]

has anyone tried any kind of voip on BBs?

[word2218]

I see that I am not the only one who has found that the 8700c downloads web pages faster than the Treo 700w. On another thread in this forum, there is this entry by birdiebo:

"I had the opportunity to compare my daughter's Treo 700 with my new 8700, and it seemed to me that web-browsing was faster and easier on the 8700."

So that confirms it. The 8700c browser is faster.

http://www.blackberryforums.com/showthread.php?t=25051

when I used a treo 700w for about a week, one thing that really annoyed me was that it had to dial up to the EVDO network (#777) in order to connect and start downloading the data - are you taking this time into account as well when you compare the 8700 v. 700w?

if the 700w is already connected to the network, in my opinion, it is faster than the 8700 downloading web pages.

if the 700w has a lot of programs open, the 8700 downloads faster - this is because of a lack of ram on the 700w.

i think the BB makes the pages look better though (no scrolling side to side).. yes i know there is an option for the 700w to just scroll downwards, but it just looks a little funky to me

[ajg]

Let's not forget that this is one case of this. I'm not saying that anything is wrong with this test. It isn't however a rock solid experiment to say that EVDO is slower than EDGE. Keep in mind that there are many variables involved. The OS, the processor, the conneciton, the browser, signal strength, etc. Why do the leave change color in the winter? Many people will say it's becuase it's getting cold. Although that is a variable, the main reason is the lack of sunlight in the winter months. One outcome may have many explanations. But the blackberry is very efficient in web and messaging so it very well could be faster on the 8700c using EDGE.

[apple85]

Keep in mind it's a Palm device and running windows, I had a 650 on cingular w/ Edge and it was a slow duck!! I tested a EVDO 700 vs my 7130e in the Verizon store when I was going to make my purchase and the 7130e is WAY faster than the 700. With it being windows maybe WINDOWS is what is causing the 700 to be slower. I went into a Cingular store the other day to fidget with a 8700c vs my 7130e and as it should be my EVDO was faster. I think it's just the phone not Verizon cuse EVDO rocks.

[REC]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102 UP.Link/6.3.0.0.0)

I really did not take it as EDGE is faster than EVDO. I took the post as the 8700 performed better than the 700w while surfing on the web. I think the original poster was surprised by this considering the fact that EVDO is a faster network than EDGE. Just my .02.

[jibi]

RIM will be releasing the 8707 UMTS (uElectron) within MONTHS not YEARS, although I believe the only availability will be in Europe, for now. They are starting to take notice to that crowd (Europe/APAC) and building those markets (lots of fishies over there). Cingular will be rolling out UMTS this year, and I believe the HSDPA downstream will be completed by next year (correct me if I'm wrong MK). T-Mobile USA has UMTS as their top priority and will be deploying it at the end of this year through mid-2007. In the same general time frame that the 8707 is released (give or take a few months), the 7130u will be released as well. By the end of the year, we'll have UMTS-enabled 8700 and 7130 series handhelds, as well as an EDGE-enabled 7130.

If Cingular has their UMTS network rolled out nationwide in the next few months, then look for them to likely hold off on sales of the 7130u (if its available in Europe at that time) due to that potentially ruining them on the 7130c/g EDGE device they will be releasing here shortly (my two cents worth of an opinion).

Depending on the release version that Cingular and T-Mobile will be releasing here in the States, their HSDPA networks should see speeds up to 8-10Mbps downstream (but its ONLY downstream), with up to 20Mbps evolving in the nearterm future. I would assume that we'll realistically see roughly 3-5Mbps.

[coreyg510]

I have heard a thing or two of HSDPA around the sales channels. Havent been able to pin down any hard evidence yet

[Boy Genius]

Also even though the 8700 kills the Treo 700w on EVDO there are certain things that make it this fast, for instance the browser settings. Try it with everything on, (html tables, use forground colors, use background images, supported embedded media, etc) And you will notice your 8700 is now much slower. I thnk thats a fair test because the internet explorer has all this enabled by default and for the most part can not be disabled

[clowe1243]

So will it be possible to upgrade my 8700c to compete, or is this a hardware upgrade to enable 3g? My last thread got locked.

[edittman1]

Seems pretty simple to me: Palm + Treo = The SUQ!

[Shineshop]

Also even though the 8700 kills the Treo 700w on EVDO there are certain things that make it this fast, for instance the browser settings. Try it with everything on, (html tables, use forground colors, use background images, supported embedded media, etc) And you will notice your 8700 is now much slower. I thnk thats a fair test because the internet explorer has all this enabled by default and for the most part can not be disabled

I actually got my blackberry thorugh a corporate contact (big wig at Rogers) and he told me that the speeds we are seeing right now are nothing compared to what is coming soon. According to him Rogers has capped the bandwidth on the edge network for now due to security issues and as soon as that is fixed it will be wide open and WAYYYY faster than is already is now.

[Mark Rejhon]

Both the 700 and 8700 use 312MHz processors. I have been checking on the Internet since I started this thread and it seems that RIM uses a compressing proxy server and downloads compressed versions of the web pages. Presumably, that's why the 8700 downloads web pages faster than the 700, and the 7130e downloads faster than the 8700.This answer is correct.

For browsing most websites on a good uncongested EDGE network, the 8700 default browser is noticeably significantly faster than the 700w default browser. There's no question about it - over the last few months, dozens of people have been surprised how much faster the EDGE 8700 is over the EVDO Treo 700w. (not always -- there are congested EDGE networks and certain websites that are faster).

If you replace the 700w browser with a compressing proxy-server browser (there's at least one for Treo), the Treo will be faster.

That being said, the 7130e browser is faster than the 8700 browser, since we are now comparing apples to apples (compressing proxy on EVDO versus compressing proxy on EDGE).

It's the fact that webpages are already precompressed when you are browsing through a BlackBerry -- automatically compressed by the proxy built into the blackberry servers including BES / BIS / BWC -- 100 kilobyte images are downrezzed to the screen resolution (Typically 10 kilobytes or so) and download much faster. So a 1 megabyte webpage would consume only 100-150 kilobytes of bandwidth on a BlackBerry. Downloading 100-150 kilobytes on EDGE can be noticeably faster than downloading 1 megabyte on EVDO.

[cooperpwc]

Also even though the 8700 kills the Treo 700w on EVDO there are certain things that make it this fast, for instance the browser settings. Try it with everything on, (html tables, use forground colors, use background images, supported embedded media, etc) And you will notice your 8700 is now much slower. I thnk thats a fair test because the internet explorer has all this enabled by default and for the most part can not be disabled
In anticipation of the Rogers 25MB limit kicking in down the road, I have already turned images off in the Browser. It speeds things up considerably. I can't see a big advantage to EVDO in the circumstances. (And how often do you need to see a picture of George Bush when you're surfing the news? No political commentary intended; I just know what he looks like. Now when the article is about supermodels, you can always click to Show All Images.)

[whoscalling]

I found this interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJAYfGqcUOc&search=evdo


Pretty interesting though.

[etaylor9]

I'm with you I seen better perfomance on the EDGE devices vs the EVDO. However when EVDO is working there is a big difference in speed. Maybe it's network tunning or something else. I've tested T-mobile Edge card, and Sprint's an VZW EVDO cards around the US I found Edge to be more consistent with the speed 130 to 180. It appears EVDO is jumping back in forth from the 1xrtt and EVDO.

[billy hutchison]

I tried out one of the new UMTS-equipped phones at a Cingular shop when I was comparing the BB and the HTC Wizard/8125 unit. I was not that impressed with the speed, to tell you the truth, but it may have been the processor on the phone slowing things up.

[ixlr8]

Check this out - streamed video & audio on the BB 8700. Apparently they're going to start demo's in June - movidity.com