PUSH through IMAP IDLE?

[datafirm]

Just ordered my 7100 today and I was wondering if we can use IMAP IDLE command to push email to the phone? I did not sign up for the BB plan with TMO, but I have GPRS so I should be able to maintain a connection to my IMAP server to get my mail pushed to me.

Has anyone done this yet?

Also, does the IMAP client let one view their saved IMAP folders?

Thanks

[sempai]

The 7100t HAS NO EMAIL CLIENT.

You would be much happier with a Treo 600/650 I think.

Or even a SideKick II.

[datafirm]

oh no crap! Yes, then I would be much happier. I will try and cancel my order.


Thanks

[sempai]

Anything to help!

The way that a BlackBerry device works is fundementally different from what most people are used to.

[Mark Rejhon]

Actually, you can make IMAP work with a BES server, but you need to get BES Hosting that supports it. It's the cheapest way to get BES, about $10 per month to purchase BES Hosting and a Microsoft Exchange email mailbox address at http://www.myblackberry.us

Before buying the Treo, please make sure you educate yourself on the advantages vs disadvantages of the Treo. You might quickly end up being willing to pay more once balancing out the advantages. It depends on what you are ultimately after.

Secondly, THERE ARE THIRD PARTY EMAIL CLIENTS for the cellphone-based BlackBerry (but you still need to pay for the BlackBerry plan and some of these requires MDS, which begin at about $10 per month to enable the TCP/IP POP connections directly from the BlackBerry.). It's called Reqwireless Emailviewer, there's Hotviewer as well (HOTMAIL client)

Sempai, it may be true that Treo600 may make this person happier in particular but there were workarounds you did not know about. Please be careful. Please do not do it again without first providing the extra information I just gave. There are tradeoffs yes. Thank You.

My 7280 with BlackBerryOS 4.0 has categories, has the same email folder tree as Microsoft Exchange (Select folder feature), and it is my own opinion that 4.0 OS now has a superior PIM to both my old Palm and my iPaq 4155 now the PIM features is parity and I am able to enter PIM data faster with the thumb keyboard.

For more information about BES Hosting, or Email Methods, and Blackberry vs. Treo, please see my BlackBerry FAQ (http://www.blackberryforums.com/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=1859).

[datafirm]

Actually, you can make IMAP work with a BES server, but you need to get BES Hosting that supports it. It's the cheapest way to get BES, about $10 per month to purchase BES Hosting and a Microsoft Exchange email mailbox address at http://www.myblackberry.us

Before buying the Treo, please make sure you educate yourself on the advantages vs disadvantages of the Treo. You might quickly end up being willing to pay more once balancing out the advantages. It depends on what you are ultimately after.

Secondly, THERE ARE THIRD PARTY EMAIL CLIENTS for the cellphone-based BlackBerry (but you still need to pay for the BlackBerry plan and some of these requires MDS, which begin at about $10 per month to enable the TCP/IP POP connections directly from the BlackBerry.). It's called Reqwireless Emailviewer, there's Hotviewer as well (HOTMAIL client)

Sempai, it may be true that Treo600 may make this person happier in particular but there were workarounds you did not know about. Please be careful. Please do not do it again without first providing the extra information I just gave. There are tradeoffs yes. Thank You.

My 7280 with BlackBerryOS 4.0 has categories, has the same email folder tree as Microsoft Exchange (Select folder feature), and it is my own opinion that 4.0 OS now has a superior PIM to both my old Palm and my iPaq 4155 now the PIM features is parity and I am able to enter PIM data faster with the thumb keyboard.

For more information about BES Hosting, or Email Methods, and Blackberry vs. Treo, please see my BlackBerry FAQ (http://www.blackberryforums.com/posting.php?mode=editpost&p=1859).

Indeed, thanks for the extra input. This is the first time with a BB. I am still a little surprised that there is no email client. I read that is does support IMAP with the default BB 7100. If it does indeed support IMAP IDLE then I can get my own push from my mail server. If this is completely not possible let me know. I would love to have my IMAP folders so I will try those other apps out when I get the phone.

I wont cancel my order just yet. I want to give it a chance. I just hope its not too big and heavy.

Thanks again!

[sempai]

The guy wants to get IMAP email.

I'm not ever going to recommend someone jump through that many hoops and pay that many people that much money in order to read email.

You're using unreleased software on a device and that is supposed to solve someone elses' problems? Do you see why I'd recommend someone spend their money elsewhere if they want to use IMAP for a reason they didn't give?

In my opinion, you would have to be pretty hard up for using a RIM device to use a Bberry to read Hotmail or an IMAP account when there are no fewer than 15 devices that will arguably do the job much better.

The only real benefit of the Bberry is "push". Any Series 60 Symbian device will attach to an IMAP inbox and show you when a new message comes in like the original poster described.

Series 60 doesn't allow for multiple folders however, not remotely at any rate. :) Nokia has added Blackberry connecto to Series 40 and Series 80, only a matter of time I suppose before Series 60 and Series 90 get it.

[sempai]

Indeed, thanks for the extra input. This is the first time with a BB. I am still a little surprised that there is no email client. I read that is does support IMAP with the default BB 7100. If it does indeed support IMAP IDLE then I can get my own push from my mail server. If this is completely not possible let me know. I would love to have my IMAP folders so I will try those other apps out when I get the phone.

I wont cancel my order just yet. I want to give it a chance. I just hope its not too big and heavy.

Thanks again!

Tell me why you want IMAP and that will help someone tell you if the Bberry will work out. I guess you don't lose anything from trying it out, regardless.

It doesn't do IMAP the way you think it does. When they say it supports IMAP what they mean is that the web application that runs up there in Canada will login to your IMAP server on your behalf and forward messages to your BlackBerry.

That's it.

It doesn't sync folders. It doesn't sync period - so you can't use the actual features of IMAP that make IMAP cool. But it will let you pull messages via IMAP and zap them to your Bberry if you have your account provisioned for Blackberry data.

[Mark Rejhon]

[Edit: This message was written in reply to your previous message]
The guy wants to get IMAP email.

I'm not ever going to recommend someone jump through that many hoops and pay that many people that much money in order to read email.

You're using unreleased software on a device and that is supposed to solve someone elses' problems? Do you see why I'd recommend someone spend their money elsewhere if they want to use IMAP for a reason they didn't give?I didn't say BlackBerryOS 4.0 is needed for IMAP. You can already get that on any BlackBerry, even your old 950. All you need to do is properly configure your BWC account such as http://www.tmobile.com/bwc ...

I only say 4.0 because some people say TREO PIM is better than BlackBerry PIM, and that may have been another reason you may have been implying that he would be happier with a TREO. Again, please see my BlackBerry FAQ's for more information about this. There are many people who rightfully say that BlackBerry PIM is CRAP... but it ain't anymore. And the 7100 already includes the 4.0-league PIM.

In my opinion, you would have to be pretty hard up for using a RIM device to use a Bberry to read Hotmail or an IMAP account when there are no fewer than 15 devices that will arguably do the job much better.

The only real benefit of the Bberry is "push". Any Series 60 Symbian device will attach to an IMAP inbox and show you when a new message comes in like the original poster described. BlackBerry can attach to an IMAP account now. All you have to do is configure your carrier properly.

Information from BlackBerry.com on how to add an IMAP account to your BlackBerry (http://www.blackberry.com/knowledgecenterpublic/livelink.exe/fetch/2000/8021/270925/How_To_-_Integrate_a_BlackBerry_account_with_a_POP_or_IMAP_account.html?nodeid=634887&vernum=0)

My point is, that I love the TREO's (they are amazing multimedia devices!) but there are more advantages to the BlackBerry than you already know.

Try out BOTH devices for a full 7 days. You'll quickly find Treo is superior at several things, yes. But you'll also see BlackBerry is superior at several things (including other things such as push email. Such as better always-on instant messaging capability in third party instant messaging software such as WebMessenger, BlackChat, IM+, 100 hours with the screen constantly, backlight off, without a standby mode, without needing a recharge, that's 24/7 Cable/DSL style nonstop true non-SMS real instant messaging connection. Try that on a TREO! Although I still find WebMessenger superiorior to the 7100 built-in SMS-powered instant messaging client that's been having complaints so far)

[datafirm]

Indeed, thanks for the extra input. This is the first time with a BB. I am still a little surprised that there is no email client. I read that is does support IMAP with the default BB 7100. If it does indeed support IMAP IDLE then I can get my own push from my mail server. If this is completely not possible let me know. I would love to have my IMAP folders so I will try those other apps out when I get the phone.

I wont cancel my order just yet. I want to give it a chance. I just hope its not too big and heavy.

Thanks again!

Tell me why you want IMAP and that will help someone tell you if the Bberry will work out. I guess you don't lose anything from trying it out, regardless.

I want to be able to see my replied to messages, read messages, and use the IMAP IDLE command for instant message delivery. I wanted the blackberry for the new keyboard and the jog dial.


It doesn't do IMAP the way you think it does. When they say it supports IMAP what they mean is that the web application that runs up there in Canada will login to your IMAP server on your behalf and forward messages to your BlackBerry.

That's it.

It doesn't sync folders. It doesn't sync period - so you can't use the actual features of IMAP that make IMAP cool. But it will let you pull messages via IMAP and zap them to your Bberry if you have your account provisioned for Blackberry data.

[datafirm]

The guy wants to get IMAP email.

I'm not ever going to recommend someone jump through that many hoops and pay that many people that much money in order to read email.

You're using unreleased software on a device and that is supposed to solve someone elses' problems? Do you see why I'd recommend someone spend their money elsewhere if they want to use IMAP for a reason they didn't give?I didn't say BlackBerryOS 4.0 is needed for IMAP. You can already get that on any BlackBerry, even your old 950. All you need to do is properly configure your BWC account such as http://www.tmobile.com/bwc ...

I only say 4.0 because some people say TREO PIM is better than BlackBerry PIM, and that may have been another reason you may have been implying that he would be happier with a TREO. Again, please see my BlackBerry FAQ's for more information about this. There are many people who rightfully say that BlackBerry PIM is CRAP... but it ain't anymore. And the 7100 already includes the 4.0-league PIM.

In my opinion, you would have to be pretty hard up for using a RIM device to use a Bberry to read Hotmail or an IMAP account when there are no fewer than 15 devices that will arguably do the job much better.

The only real benefit of the Bberry is "push". Any Series 60 Symbian device will attach to an IMAP inbox and show you when a new message comes in like the original poster described. BlackBerry can attach to an IMAP account now. All you have to do is configure your carrier properly.

Information from BlackBerry.com on how to add an IMAP account to your BlackBerry (http://www.blackberry.com/knowledgecenterpublic/livelink.exe/fetch/2000/8021/270925/How_To_-_Integrate_a_BlackBerry_account_with_a_POP_or_IMAP_account.html?nodeid=634887&vernum=0)


I dont want to hook it into my IMAP account, although that will be what is needed if I cannot get IMAP IDLE support or an IMAP reader.

I am still going to try out my phone, I must say that I am surprised, but I am sure others are not.

BTW can one upgrade the OS on this phone?

My point is, that I love the TREO's (they are amazing multimedia devices!) but there are more advantages to the BlackBerry than you already know.

Try out BOTH devices for a full 7 days. You'll quickly find Treo is superior at several things, yes. But you'll also see BlackBerry is superior at several things (including other things such as push email. Such as better always-on instant messaging capability in third party instant messaging software such as WebMessenger, BlackChat, IM+, 100 hours with the screen constantly, backlight off, without needing a recharge, that's 24/7 Cable/DSL style nonstop true non-SMS real instant messaging connection. Try that on a TREO!)

Are these things that require a BB account through TMO?

[Mark Rejhon]

I should emphasize that you must have a BlackBerry plan on any BlackBerry -- if you are to have a good chance of being happier with it than a Treo. Because it not possible to do IMAP email delivery without a BlackBerry plan.

Also, the 7100 instant messaging client uses the SMS method of transmitting messages, although that is not my preferred way. But it could be good enough for your needs.

If this is a decision made on a price basis for a service plan, owning a Treo may be cheaper (i.e. avoiding paying for a BlackBerry plan), but this is negetated because a Treo phone is more expensive than a 7100 BlackBerry. However, if you get a huge discount.

Yes you can upgrade the BlackBerryOS on a 7100 when RIM releases a newer operating system. Operating system releases are not frequent but you can expect RIM to release one within a few months for the 7100.

I don't know if the 7100 will work with generic data (third party software that does TCP/IP) without a BlackBerry plan, but this does not work on other models of BlackBerries. The 7100 supports TCP/IP connections.

[datafirm]

I should emphasize that you must have a BlackBerry plan on any BlackBerry -- if you are to have a good chance of being happier with it than a Treo. Because it not possible to do IMAP email delivery without a BlackBerry plan.

Also, the 7100 instant messaging client uses the SMS method of transmitting messages, although that is not my preferred way. But it could be good enough for your needs.

If this is a decision made on a price basis for a service plan, owning a Treo may be cheaper (i.e. avoiding paying for a BlackBerry plan), but this is negetated because a Treo phone is more expensive than a 7100 BlackBerry. However, if you get a huge discount.

Yes you can upgrade the BlackBerryOS on a 7100 when RIM releases a newer operating system. Operating system releases are not frequent but you can expect RIM to release one within a few months for the 7100.

I don't know if the 7100 will work with generic data (third party software that does TCP/IP) without a BlackBerry plan, but this does not work on other models of BlackBerries. The 7100 supports TCP/IP connections.

Thanks for the clarifications RE SMS and needing a Blackberry plan. I agree that the SMS type delivery is odd. Is this transparent to all users? I assume this also counts against your SMS messages. You do not get unlimited SMS with the TMO plans.

The 7100 is starting to look a little dull in my eyes.

Pricing is no concern for me. I just want a BT phone with IMAP capabilities, small form factor and qwerty (or the likes) keyboard, ability to use as a modem (which I read may not be possible with the 7100).


Thanks!!

[Mark Rejhon]

If you want the best possible instant messaging, purchase a third party client and install it on the 7100. It will do a direct TCP/IP connection instead. My current favourite is WebMessenger from www.webmessenger.com .... It works very well on my Rogers 7280.

It is not possible right now to use the 7100 as a modem right now yet. The capability is there in the hardware but not in software. As you may have already read, RIM is beta testing a modem feature for future deployment on certain models, but there is no release date -- it can be easily be next year. RIM has a history of not enabling features for a long time, so you may want to be aware of that. And who knows, if T-Mobile wants to offer the modem feature -- as that can add heavy usage to unlimited data plans.

The Treo works as an external modem using the PDANet program. That's something you can use today. Treo does not have Bluetooth without a Bluetooth card though. (Unless you want to wait for the Treo 650)

Summarization (for today)
Multimedia - Treo wins
Email - BlackBerry wins
External modem - Treo wins
Instant Messaging - BlackBerry wins

Now you can make an informed decision based on preferences! :D You may need to try both devices out to see which one is more comfortable, though, if you're still divided.

[datafirm]

If you want the best possible instant messaging, purchase a third party client and install it on the 7100. It will do a direct TCP/IP connection instead. My current favourite is WebMessenger from www.webmessenger.com .... It works very well on my Rogers 7280.

It is not possible right now to use the 7100 as a modem right now yet. The capability is there in the hardware but not in software. As you may have already read, RIM is beta testing a modem feature for future deployment on certain models, but there is no release date -- it can be easily be next year. RIM has a history of not enabling features for a long time, so you may want to be aware of that. And who knows, if T-Mobile wants to offer the modem feature -- as that can add heavy usage to unlimited data plans.

The Treo works as an external modem using the PDANet program. That's something you can use today. Treo does not have Bluetooth without a Bluetooth card though. (Unless you want to wait for the Treo 650)

Summarization (for today)
Multimedia - Treo wins
Email - BlackBerry wins
External modem - Treo wins
Instant Messaging - BlackBerry wins

Now you can make an informed decision based on preferences! :D You may need to try both devices out to see which one is more comfortable, though, if you're still divided.

Thanks, although I think any other phone with an IMAP client with IMAP IDLE support will win for me over BB "push". Since its the same thing and not proprietary and expensive.

BT modem, I currently use a T39m and it works wonders for a simple phone with great reception and BT. TMO should have no problems with modem use as lots of their phones currently support it.

Thanks for the breakdown. Multimedia is of no use for me. Perhaps neither phone is for me. The most perfect phone I have ever owned is still my Ericsson T39m!!

Regards

[Mark Rejhon]

IMAP IDLE will be unreliable on almost any cellphone if you try to write your own client:

1. IP address can change in celltower changes.
2. Going in and out of coverage can cause re-obtaining of new IP address.
3. Most cell carriers have a connection timeout, so your IMAP connection can be closed after 120 seconds.

That's why BlackBerry uses their system; it works around these kinds of things. One possibility is Nextel, which allows static IP addresses on their phones.

If you want reliable wireless email that doesn't hang, doesn't get stuck, keeps successfully retrying, doesn't timeout, doesn't display error messages, just works when you want it to, guaranteed reliability, long battery life without the overhead of re-handshaking on every celltower change, IP address change, and compensates for fluctuating IP addresses, you need a push mail server such as BlackBerry or Goodlink or another mobile-friendly system. That costs extra money, and that is why BlackBerry plans are more expensive than other phones, due to the additional server infrastructure.

You can manually check email reliably on a Treo, but you cannot have reliable push email without a BlackBerry plan or a Goodlink plan or another dedicated pushmail system. Plain IMAP doesn't cut it, unfortunately, in a mobile environment with frequent momentary disconnects and IP address changes...

Industry standard is not necessarily best on a wireless device... That's why IMAP is moved to the BWC server, not IMAP directly on the device.

A technically minded person can write your own Linux or Windows Server software that simulates IMAP IDLE support and forwards new messages to the direct push-email address.

[datafirm]

IMAP IDLE will be unreliable on almost any cellphone if you try to write your own client:

1. IP address can change in celltower changes.
2. Going in and out of coverage can cause re-obtaining of new IP address.
3. Most cell carriers have a connection timeout, so your IMAP connection can be closed after 120 seconds.

That's why BlackBerry uses their system; it works around these kinds of things. One possibility is Nextel, which allows static IP addresses on their phones.

If you want reliable wireless email that doesn't hang, doesn't get stuck, keeps successfully retrying, doesn't display error messages, just works when you want it to, guaranteed reliability, long battery life without the overhead of re-handshaking on every celltower change, IP address change, and compensates for fluctuating IP addresses, you need a push mail server such as BlackBerry or Goodlink or another mobile-friendly system. That costs extra money, and that is why BlackBerry plans are more expensive than other phones, due to the additional server infrastructure.

Industry standard is not necessarily best on a wireless device... That's why IMAP is moved to the BWC, not IMAP directly on the device.

And that is why I am going to give it a shot!! :)

[Mark Rejhon]

PS.... If you want the ultimate.... You can already get wireless 2-way synchronization on all folders between an Exchange-powered IMAP server, but you must use Blackberry Enterprise Server to gain this 2-way wireless email synchronization to BlackBerry.

It's even more expensive than just having a BlackBerry plan -- you also have to pay for Blackberry Enterprise Server on top of it all! But this is the Mercedes of wireless email.

If you want wireless bidirectional email synchronization, you're limited to few choices of servers, basically Exchange is your only choice if you want the most inexpensive $10-to-$25-per-month wireless email synchronization (Exchange/BES/MDS hosting by Mailstreet or MyBlackberry, etc). Not many people like Exchange, because it's proprietary though.

(Granted, you can use Goodlink on a TREO 600, but that's more expensive for a single user, unfortunately)

[datafirm]

PS.... If you want the ultimate.... You can already get wireless 2-way synchronization on all folders between an Exchange-powered IMAP server, but you must use Blackberry Enterprise Server to gain this 2-way wireless email synchronization to BlackBerry.

It's even more expensive than just having a BlackBerry plan -- you also have to pay for Blackberry Enterprise Server on top of it all! But this is the Mercedes of wireless email.

(Granted, you can use Goodlink on a TREO 600, but that's more expensive for a single user, unfortunately)

Yeah, I use Cyrus IMAPd 2.3. There may be a way to go about it though. I think I will just give the BB a shot.

TMO seems to be offering a 19.99 unlimited BB plan for business users. Does that seem like a good deal?

Otherwise I can get an external client for the 7100 and poll every 30 mins or so?

[Mark Rejhon]

People find the BlackBerry email to be so good, they don't even bother installing third party email clients. So you rarely ever see reviews about third party email software. But they exist and work. The best ones are Reqwireless from www.reqwireless.com at this time.

I think your best choices are either:

(1) Easiest: Configuring your BWC to poll your IMAP server. You will get new messages every 15 minutes.

(2) Automatic forwarding a CC: to your BlackBerry push address, that's how I do it. My BlackBerry then acts like a great wireless email notifier. Whenever my BlackBerry vibrates, I know I have new email waiting for me, and I can look at its screen pager-style (message displayed right away SMS/pager style after pulling out of holster) or reply to the message from my desktop instead. And your BlackBerry vibrates within 4-10 seconds of somebody clicking SEND to your email address, no need to check email, it's already downloaded to your BlackBerry realtime.

[sempai]

I use Cyrus at home to archive all of my email because Cyrus blows the holy hell out of Exchange, Notes, or any other email server out there.

I have a BlackBerry on a BES also. I can honestly say that if I were living in some Microsoft fantasy land, it would be the best way to do it, but since I'm thankfully working and living in the real world, I have had to do things a little differently than leave the blinders on.

[Mark Rejhon]

Not particularly fond of Exchange either, but that's the only way to get wireless 2-way email synchronization cheaply ($10-$25 per month externally-hosted Exchange account with BES)

If you are a Java programmer, it is technically possible to write software that does wireless 2-way synchronization with IMAP over a TCP/IP connection over MDS, but accessing and modifying the BlackBerry mailbox requires some protected RIM API's and RIM may not be happy about undercutting an advantage of the BES server.

[datafirm]

Not particularly fond of Exchange either, but that's the only way to get wireless 2-way email synchronization cheaply ($10-$25 per month externally-hosted Exchange account with BES)

Yeah, Im not fond of Exchange. Too bad there is not an opensource system that the Blackberry can talk to.

[sempai]

People find the BlackBerry email to be so good, they don't even bother installing third party email clients. So you rarely ever see reviews about third party email software. But they exist and work. The best ones are Reqwireless from www.reqwireless.com at this time.

I think your best choices are either:

(1) Easiest: Configuring your BWC to poll your IMAP server. You will get new messages every 15 minutes.

(2) Automatic forwarding a CC: to your BlackBerry push address, that's how I do it. My BlackBerry then acts like a great wireless email notifier. Whenever my BlackBerry vibrates, I know I have new email waiting for me, and I can look at its screen pager-style (message displayed right away SMS/pager style after pulling out of holster) or reply to the message from my desktop instead. And your BlackBerry vibrates within 4-10 seconds of somebody clicking SEND to your email address, no need to check email, it's already downloaded to your BlackBerry realtime.

I use my personal BlackBerry as email triage. I get a lot of messages. I have procmail echo things directly to my Bberry unless they're always junk or not interesting to me (determined by a cascade of procmail rules) and then it's all spam-proofed by spamassassin and TMDA.

So I have been freed from waiting for emails at home when I should be spending time working on other things, and I can do my email management "for real" on the computer later, where I have my fancy-pants storage and heirarchy all setup in my cyrus server.

Plus, during the day, I can use mutt to read my mail "for real" and manage things as I need to, and everything is nicely and neatly archived and worked on after being tagged.

[sempai]

Not particularly fond of Exchange either, but that's the only way to get wireless 2-way email synchronization cheaply ($10-$25 per month externally-hosted Exchange account with BES)

Yeah, Im not fond of Exchange. Too bad there is not an opensource system that the Blackberry can talk to.

They could easily do it, they just choose not to.

Making something talk to Exchange is a lot more difficult than making something speak to IMAP servers.

[Mark Rejhon]

For those programmers who may read this...
(Skip if you are not a programmer, but anybody who runs opensource software are more likely to be programmers than those who do not run opensource software).

Actually, there is no limitation for a third party software programmer to write a better IMAP client for BlackBerry that supports IMAP IDLE. You don't even need to get this application signed by RIM if you keep a separate Inbox away from the Message list. You may need signing for larger amounts of data storage, though. But then again, a loophole exists: Get Dynoplex eFile filesystem API :D (pre-signed) and your storage problems are solved. No need to get RIM involved, since you now have a filesystem on BlackBerry this way that a programmer can use to store downloaded IMAP messages.

But you'll still need TCP/IP (MDS), and need some logic to make it more reliable over wireless. But it's technically doable without RIM's involvement today now to write an IMAP IDLE capable email client. Then again, you might need message notifications -- which you still need RIM to sign. (Then you might as well hook into the existing RIM Inbox while you're at it)

Within 12 months, a third party will write an IMAP client that installs on a BlackBerry -- as a separate client at least. Time will tell.

Average Joe Users can care less, but with BlackBerry doubling in numbers in less than a year, there's going to be incredible pressure for better opensouce support by at least a few technically-minded BlackBerry users who's desparate enough to write their own clients.

Open source software for BlackBerry now exists -- and RIM is willing to sign them, as long as they don't undercut other RIM products. RIM signed an opensource free ICQ chat program called BlackChat to allow it to hook it into the protected sound/vibrate Notification API. They are more open about it now.

So the opportunity is there for a third party developer both ways, to add improved IMAP capabilities in an IMAP client directly running on BlackBerry, either with or without RIM involvement.

(Note: RIM, as always, is very security conscious. That's why it's nearly impossible to write a Blackberry virus because of all the safeguards against modifying stuff on BlackBerry without RIM first looking at your source code and then cryptographically signing it so that it works. That's why signing is necessary. But fortunately, signing is only needed for certain API's. The USA government is a major customer of BlackBerries. A rare Canadian victory in this day and age, with them being the most reliable communication devices in events of 911 and florida hurricanes)

[sempai]

I would be happy with a wireless reconsile and sync over BBerry to IMAP via BWC.

That would be great!

But they don't seem to get that for whatever reason. Ultimately nobody cares what protocol is used for email. POP, IMAP, it doesn't matter. It matters to nerds like me (us?) because we know what the difference is, but there are people out there using Yahoo! email and think it rocks!

[sempai]

...what's funny is that a lot of people are getting the new BlackBerrys that are NOT as usable in natural disasters as my old mobitex ones are!

[Mark Rejhon]

One word: Profit.

RIM needs to be a profitable company that keeps the big customers happy. Like Fortune 500 companies and the USA government. They will concentrate on the infrastructure needed by these companies. So if profit is what they are looking for, they "get it" amazingly well -- the stock has gone up about 1000% in a year.

However, if they want to increase market penetration among consumers and prosumers that have special needs like IMAP, they "don't get it" quite yet, as you may say. Fortunately, there's less and less barriers today for a third party to write an IMAP IDLE capable client (Without needing to be signed by RIM, thankfully!)

[Mark Rejhon]

sempai, true, some Mobitex networks have good footprints in the states. Mobitex has historically been more resistant to disasters.

But, here in the province of Ontario of Canada, there's a massive GSM850 network now -- I got 1000 kilometers of nonstop reception travelling from Ottawa->Quebec City and Ottawa->Niagara Falls on highways and trains. So if you travel from Niagara Falls to Quebec City, that's 1000 kilometers (about 600 mles).

In November 2003, the GSM 850 Mhz network was overlaid on top of the GSM 1900 Mhz network, considered a major reception-improving defining event by Rogers HowardForum members who reported 1 bars jumping to 4 and 5 bars in 2-level-underground garages, etc. The higher 2-watt transmitters of new GSM 850 Mhz BlackBerries is more powerful than the typical 0.8-watt TMobile 7230.

So in Ontario, GSM 850 Mhz mammothly blows away Mobitex 900 Mhz and the distance reach is the same, yet there's way more GSM850 capable towers than Mobitex towers now and there's now relatively good GPRS rural reception 2-3 hours outside major Southern Ontario cities. And since Rogers owns both Canadian Mobitex and GSM850, they are on the same towers. So I am able to make a direct comparision between GSM850 and Mobitex. No contest - GSM850 wins.

But in Chicago area, people say the Mobitex network is massive better than GSM. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case in Florida!

I have to wonder which network would survive best in a disaster in Ontario: Mobitex or GPRS... Will the GSM850 equipment crash and shutdown more quickly than the Mobitex equipment? Hope this never gets tested around here...

But my Mobitex blackberry worked very well for quite some time in the Great Blackout of 2003. There were brief difficulties at times though, but a lot less than cellphone users for sure! The 850 Mhz network didn't yet exist during The Great Blackout of 2003, so a fair comparision was not tested then.

[sempai]

I lived in Washington DC and my partner lived in Manhattan on Sept 11.

Mobitex devices worked.

Nothing else did.

GSM BlackBerry's would have been just as useless as the mobile phones people were clutching to.

[Mark Rejhon]

No kidding. Mobitex performed spetacularly that day.

GSM infrastructure has massively improved in many areas though (Especially Canada). Although there were some spotty problems in the Florida hurricane disasters, a lot of GSM, iDEN and CDMA blackberries worked even though they couldn't make phone calls, because the Internet connection (GPRS/1X) was still up but that the voice circuits were down or overloaded. SMS and short data messages working when voice calls could not.

Mobitex probably performed better, though -- but for a change, the consensus wasn't exactly clear! So many reports of people being able to send messages from all kinds of BlackBerries. But all technologies (even Mobitex) had zero-reception problems in certain other parts of Florida, so it's harder to guess a clear winner.

[datafirm]

People find the BlackBerry email to be so good, they don't even bother installing third party email clients. So you rarely ever see reviews about third party email software. But they exist and work. The best ones are Reqwireless from www.reqwireless.com at this time.

I think your best choices are either:

(1) Easiest: Configuring your BWC to poll your IMAP server. You will get new messages every 15 minutes.

(2) Automatic forwarding a CC: to your BlackBerry push address, that's how I do it. My BlackBerry then acts like a great wireless email notifier. Whenever my BlackBerry vibrates, I know I have new email waiting for me, and I can look at its screen pager-style (message displayed right away SMS/pager style after pulling out of holster) or reply to the message from my desktop instead. And your BlackBerry vibrates within 4-10 seconds of somebody clicking SEND to your email address, no need to check email, it's already downloaded to your BlackBerry realtime.

I use my personal BlackBerry as email triage. I get a lot of messages. I have procmail echo things directly to my Bberry unless they're always junk or not interesting to me (determined by a cascade of procmail rules) and then it's all spam-proofed by spamassassin and TMDA.

So I have been freed from waiting for emails at home when I should be spending time working on other things, and I can do my email management "for real" on the computer later, where I have my fancy-pants storage and heirarchy all setup in my cyrus server.

Plus, during the day, I can use mutt to read my mail "for real" and manage things as I need to, and everything is nicely and neatly archived and worked on after being tagged.

You can SSH in and use Mutt on the BB?

[Mark Rejhon]

I can use SSH on the BlackBerry -- I use Idokorro MobileSSH for that, which supports VT100. It's an expensive but good SSH client, but I heard other people working on new cheaper SSH clients for late 2004 or early 2005. An open source SSH client already almost works on my BlackBerry, just have to wait until someone fixes it to work...

Others java phone software to try are TelnetFloyd, FloydSSH, and MuTelnet ... none of them work on my BlackBerry yet, but not sure about 7100. Well, MuTelnet displays the login, but I can't type any data. And FloydSSH doesn't install properly (someone successfully forced a manual install someone, but reported problems with sockets).

Idokorro, at $199, is mainly focussing on selling to other companies, but it is possible they will reprice Idokorro MobileSSH lower for more sales when Public MDS becomes widespread.

[datafirm]

...what's funny is that a lot of people are getting the new BlackBerrys that are NOT as usable in natural disasters as my old mobitex ones are!

Yout dont have high hopes for my 7100? :?

[datafirm]

One word: Profit.

RIM needs to be a profitable company that keeps the big customers happy. Like Fortune 500 companies and the USA government. They will concentrate on the infrastructure needed by these companies. So if profit is what they are looking for, they "get it" amazingly well -- the stock has gone up about 1000% in a year.

However, if they want to increase market penetration among consumers and prosumers that have special needs like IMAP, they "don't get it" quite yet, as you may say. Fortunately, there's less and less barriers today for a third party to write an IMAP IDLE capable client (Without needing to be signed by RIM, thankfully!)

For fortune 500 companies and the govt. They could easily allow Open Source for alternate message delivery through their mailbox API. That would not kill their sales, since the Fortune 500 are going to use MS Exchange anyhow.

[sempai]

I have used SSH from the OTHER Bberry but I don't think it's useful for reading email. I would rather use a Hiptop for using SSH and pine/mutt.

But that's just me, don't be mad, Marky. :)

I have used PuTTY on Series60 and UIQ. Both were equally bad but usable in a fix. I suppose I'd like having a last resort SSH on my 7100, but I'll wait for BWC and 4.0 on T-Mobile because under no circumstances will I pay some guy in his mothers' basement for MDS/BES.

[datafirm]

I have used SSH from the OTHER Bberry but I don't think it's useful for reading email. I would rather use a Hiptop for using SSH and pine/mutt.

But that's just me, don't be mad, Marky. :)

I have used PuTTY on Series60 and UIQ. Both were equally bad but usable in a fix. I suppose I'd like having a last resort SSH on my 7100, but I'll wait for BWC and 4.0 on T-Mobile because under no circumstances will I pay some guy in his mothers' basement for MDS/BES.

I thought I heard you say that you use Mutt to read or look over all your mail, while your important (scanned) messages get sent to your BB. I assumed you were using Mutt on the BB.

Later

[Mark Rejhon]

There's a wider selection of telnet clients on a Treo. The lack of cursor pad on BlackBerry makes editing emails much harder. However, a well-designed telnet/SSH client with proper chunk-buffering, should perform very well on the BlackBerry. I've written color ANSI code since 1991, so I can make a very spiffy VT100 compatible client, if I had the time....or if a local company like Idokorro wants my help! :D

Idokorro is good in that it stays connected reliably even on a moving train and car, resisting disconnections. It has its own deficiencies they are keeping for the $995 server. But I also run a copy of 'screen' just in case, for resuming interrupted sessions.

Even though I don't yet have J2ME programming experience, I have had lots of experience in optimized chunk-buffering algorithms on high-latency networks, and I can make it behave more intuitively; I can make the thumbwheel behave like a cursor key like it really should; so that editing is much easier in a BlackBerry telnet software. (IMHO, backscroll should be a menu feature, not a scrollwheel feature -- that should be kept for cursor movement).

I bet can easily write a really good BlackBerry telnet client, if someone paid me though. :D

[sempai]

...what's funny is that a lot of people are getting the new BlackBerrys that are NOT as usable in natural disasters as my old mobitex ones are!

Yout dont have high hopes for my 7100? :?

No, absolutely not.

In the United States we do not have an adequete telecommunications infrastructure. We are spectrum-poor and unable to meet demands in some markets.

DC and NYC are large markets. They are spectrum-poor overtaxed overworked and way over capacity for them to function in a disaster.

AT&T Wireless on Sept 10, 2001 was giving me network busy at 6:00PM on the capital beltway. It hasn't gotten a whole lot better aside from now using Cingular in some spots and hopefully being able to sustain the usual call volume.

Any time a natural disaster or unnatural disaster occurs - or even anything newsworthy, everyone freaks out and grabs spectrum via mobile phones.

This isn't limited to the US of course - I think KDDI, AU or NTT DoCoMo in Japan will boot entire banks of calls when a diaster comes, and only allow text messaging to work to conserve radio spectrum and allow people to get messages sent.

The old school BlackBerry devices, sans-phone sans-speaker with the triple-digit model numbers are the only thing worth a damn in DC when planes were crashing into buildings. I have zero confidence that AT&T Wireless, Cingular, Verizon, SprintPCS, T-Mobile USA, or any of the small shops have managed to figure out a way to make things that much better yet. The reason it is so difficult is because not that these operators are all incompetent, but because we have an authoritarian dictatorship in the FCC that plays games with technology and markets with the kind of agility often seen in people suffering from muscular disorders.

Add to this that AT&T Wireless, in their wisdom, deployed WCDMA/UMTS on the 1900Mhz spectrum band, and witness the idiocy first hand while you watch even FEWER people able to use GSM1900 in markets with WCDMA because it takes more timeslots to accomodate them. This is another instance where it would have been nice to follow everone else and stick it on 2100 so that we could use cool things from Europe like that sexy Z1010. :)

[sempai]

I have used SSH from the OTHER Bberry but I don't think it's useful for reading email. I would rather use a Hiptop for using SSH and pine/mutt.

But that's just me, don't be mad, Marky. :)

I have used PuTTY on Series60 and UIQ. Both were equally bad but usable in a fix. I suppose I'd like having a last resort SSH on my 7100, but I'll wait for BWC and 4.0 on T-Mobile because under no circumstances will I pay some guy in his mothers' basement for MDS/BES.

I thought I heard you say that you use Mutt to read or look over all your mail, while your important (scanned) messages get sent to your BB. I assumed you were using Mutt on the BB.

Later

I will have to re-read but in case it wasn't clear, I do use mutt to read email but not from the BBerry. I use it from my workstation at work.

I have two devices, one for work (BES-bound and gagged ;)) and one that isn't. I read email when I'm at my desk using mutt and also get them on my BBerry.

[Mark Rejhon]

Damn.... CRTC is a little more leninent in Canada allowing monopolies, duopolies, and oliogopolies (to the dismay of some Canadians). However, it has made what certain people believe to be a superior telephone and cellphone network in Canada. But with just barely enough competition to keep prices in check. Some know us as the land of cheap high speed, with some people getting basic highspeed for $19.95 per month in dollarettes (CDN) which is about $15 US dollars. Premium 5 megabit highspeed cable for only $44 dollarettes (CDN) which is about $35 US. Ok, I do like to joke about our dollars, although it's been up lately. Right now, there is only one GSM carrier, Rogers, which is merging with Fido, and all the spectrum totals up quite a lot, the equivalent of three USA carriers worth of spectrum all controlled by one carrier in terms of airwave capacity. Scary thought for some us Canadians, but South Ontario is now like one giant Wifi hotspot.

I just hope it stands up in the next disaster (if one happens).

Many people, including Guess, do hate Rogers and their business tactics. Both Rogers and Bell Canada(Telus) are more or less head to head with their respective advantages and disadvantages.

Canada is gradually shrinking to the Big Three (or Big Two, depending on your viewpoint)
One CDMA network in Canada (Bell/Telus, freely roams on each other)
One GSM network in Canada (Rogers/Fido merging, I think partially roaming on each other now), three carrier's worth of spectrum.
One iDEN network in Canada (Telus, roams onto Nextel)