Will Push E-Mail and Synch Work on 8820's WiFi?

[whleong]

With WiFi in 8820, will push e-mail work on WiFi or Data Plan still required?

[JSanders]

It is pure speculation with me, but I suspect the email app will still require a Data Plan, and that your WiFi will primarily enhance your internet browsing.

For example, I would not want to have to wait, while traveling, to find another WiFe spot to send/get email, while as it is now, I can do anywhere I get my Cingular EDGE signal. If I have to wait to get a WiFi connection, that will be a step down, IMHO.

EDIT: Read this: http://ce.seekingalpha.com/article/41440

[rsnadel]

I look at the Blackberry as a "razors and blades" type situation. Gillette will almost give you the razor because they know they make their money on the blades. Blackberry is willing to support the discounting of phones because so much money is made on the monthly plans. I can't imagine them cutting off what must be their primary source of income by making a phone that eliminates the need for the monthly plans.

[Dubdub]

I agree wit the previous posters. WiFi should give enhanced browsing capability, but not email.

[jeremy]

It makes sense that using BIS or BES for email services would require a data plan. The WiFi connection is an additional benefit.

As far as email over WiFi, it will work with at least BES because of Bypass, giving you connectivity without:

1. Carrier signal
2. Use of data plan

Hopefully RIM will introduce the ability to use bypass with BIS.

[nuopus]

The responses that you get with you Blackberry don't come across using standard Internet address means. Blackberry uses its own Internet, where addressing of your phone is based on a PIN. Everything with email uses this.

Since this is a different network with different addressing than the TCP/IP used on the Internet, I don't see how you coud get your push email through it, unless they employ a gateway system.

So I am willing to bet that you will have to have a BIS or BES account still, purely because they are incompatible networks. I can't see them employing a gateway system so that people can get away with NOT paying for BIS. It would cost extra money on their end, for a potential money losing service. I would not do it if I were them.

[Berry One]

With WiFi in 8820, will push e-mail work on WiFi or Data Plan still required?

Data plan still required. Carrier may decide to give WiFi 'add-on' to standard blackberry data plan for free but don't expect them become charities.

[RoC1909]

I think it absolutely sucks if that you would have to have a 'data plan' in order to use the Wi-Fi! It's the carriers 'nickle and diming' the consumers for every little feature.

[ladydi]

I agree. I've been hoping for a new version of the old wifi BB or to be able to use the 8820 with wifi only. We have users who just need to sync on site and if I could get rid of activesync forever, my life would be complete. We just can't afford all those service plans.

[Aroc]

Hello Di,

Yes, I too, am surprised that we haven't seen a refresh of the 7270 (famed "Wifi" blackberry).

Regards,
Aaron

[Aroc]

I think it absolutely sucks if that you would have to have a 'data plan' in order to use the Wi-Fi! It's the carriers 'nickle and diming' the consumers for every little feature.

You'd still need to interface with a phone system at some point and that bridge provider (likely your carrier) is going to want to get paid. The exception here is if you are using something like a 7270 on a Corporate wireless LAN with a corporate PBX (phone switch) and BES server, in which case you are the phone company. But even then its not free since your company is maintaining all sorts of equipment (BES, PBX, wireless LAN, etc).

To get email, you'd still need to interface with RIM's network (BIS or BES) as RIM's implementation of push email requires this man-in-the-middle. So RIM still needs to get paid (Via the carrier, most likely). So no free lunch here, either.

Short of web access or other things TCP/IP, I can't see Wifi being both free and unmetered. Blackberry's strength comes for convergence of email and voice. There are better "data" devices out there.

[JSanders]

Exactly, Aroc. Remember the niche BB fills and the market they serve. RIM cannot forget the carriers and they $$s they need to make off the services. The carriers, in a sense, are the ones who made RIM successful. RIM won't abandon them at this point.

[takeshi]

I think it absolutely sucks if that you would have to have a 'data plan' in order to use the Wi-Fi! It's the carriers 'nickle and diming' the consumers for every little feature.
There's no telling for certain at this point but odds are you'd still need a data plan for BIS and/or BES access which isn't any different than it is now. RIM's infrastructure isn't a good example of carrier nickel and diming IMO as they actually do pay RIM.

[nuopus]

I think it absolutely sucks if that you would have to have a 'data plan' in order to use the Wi-Fi! It's the carriers 'nickle and diming' the consumers for every little feature.

If you have to have a data plan to get your BIS email it does not suck, it makes sense. It would cost them extra money to give you the ability to use BIS over a wifi connection.

When you connect WiFI you connect to the Internet using the TCP/IP protocol. The BlackBerry push email capabilities are based around their own proprietary network using THEIR protocols. On the BB network, your device is referenced by PIN. On the Internet, your device is referenced by numeric IP address.

If you cannot use WiFI to get BIS or BES email strictly through that, it is because they are two completely dissimilar networks, not because they are trying to nickel and dime you. To give you access to use your PIN across TCP/IP on a WiFi connection, it would take a lot of extra effort on the part of RIM because something to convert data between the two networks would be needed.

Besides, I don't think a gateway like that should EVER be created. It just means that BackBerry email traffic would go across the TCP/IP internet, and thus be a lot less secure than it is now. Once something is available across the Internet, I no longer trust it.

[nuopus]

I will bet that browsing the Internet will be free using WiFi. This is better on RIM because it it frees up congestion to their proxies. People will STILL pay for a data plan though, and it should not effect RIM for two reasons.

A) Most of their biggest clients are corporate contracts. For the most part, the reason they got BB in the first place is their push email. Their push email is a completely separate network than the Internet for good reason. They should NEVER allow you to get your BIS or BES push email across a TCP/IP link on the Internet. I think they would lose a lot of customers who have BB for the secure email aspect of it.

B) Mobility. Enough said. WiFi does not give you the mobility you need. A HUGE portion of their clients are corporate contracts, and most of them require the mobility a data plan gives you. I for one, would NEVER ... EVER ... drop a data plan for a limited range technology like WiFi. That time of connectivity is a supplement ONLY.

[theBorg]

Since this is a different network with different addressing than the TCP/IP used on the Internet, I don't see how you coud get your push email through it, unless they employ a gateway system.


Yeah, well thought out, nuo.

The only way around this issue that I can imagine would be a standalone app that works around the PIN address. It would not be push, but based on some unique ID from a server elsewhere that the app talks to. Then connection setup could be similar to web browsing. The gMail app, for instance.

[nuopus]

Yeah, well thought out, nuo.

The only way around this issue that I can imagine would be a standalone app that works around the PIN address. It would not be push, but based on some unique ID from a server elsewhere that the app talks to. Then connection setup could be similar to web browsing. The gMail app, for instance.

Ya, I can see that. A system where I would have to go to it. The moment push email for BB works across the open Internet, is the day we call BlackBerry email unsecured. At that point, for me at least, BlackBerry will lose some of its appeal. Im sure it will be the same with other corporate contracts that have BB because of security.

It is a lot more complicated than just .. "the carriers are nickel and diming us." Now, VERIZON on the other hand ... is nickel and diming you. LOL I just noticed there were no Verizon posters. I was just thinking of how funny it would be to see a Verizon customer complaining of someone else nickel and diming. LOL

[omkhar]

<snip>


Besides, I don't think a gateway like that should EVER be created. It just means that BackBerry email traffic would go across the TCP/IP internet, and thus be a lot less secure than it is now. Once something is available across the Internet, I no longer trust it.


that's the silliest thing I've every heard. *ANY* email that is sent to your email address (outside of your domain) traverses the Internet to get to the Mail Exchanger (the MX record) for your mail domain. So if I send you an email to blah@<hidden> from omkhar@<hidden> it will traverse the Internet (usually unencrypted)

So I guess you don't trust that your email traffic hasn't been altered (which you shouldn't unless it's encrypted + sign by something like PGP).

[omkhar]

The main issue that most people disregard is the amount of jitter that WiFi connections have.

I've deployed wireless VoIP solutions and quite often we had to significantly increase the WAP count in order to provide acceptable VoIP performance.

Lets not forget security... I'd be interested to see what kinds of wireless crypto are supported by this device.

[nuopus]

that's the silliest thing I've every heard. *ANY* email that is sent to your email address (outside of your domain) traverses the Internet to get to the Mail Exchanger (the MX record) for your mail domain. So if I send you an email to blah@<hidden> from omkhar@<hidden> it will traverse the Internet (usually unencrypted)

So I guess you don't trust that your email traffic hasn't been altered (which you shouldn't unless it's encrypted + sign by something like PGP).

Ummmm no it doesn't. Their biggest clients are corporate contracts, who use their BlackBerries for internal company correspondance while they are mobile. The secure email is BES ... and that is not Internet. It is all handled by the BES server. All proprietary secure traffic. Now, once you send OUT ... you are correct.

I was saying that allowing wireless PIN or BES traffic using wifi is stupid because you negate the security of the blackberry network.

[omkhar]

More over (technically) all BIS/BES traffic does traverse the Internet. Provider/BES -> RIM connections all occur over the Internet. The transactions are all encrypted, but to assert that the security of a BlackBerry is some how compromised because of a native (not proxied) TCP/IP connection is somewhat daft.

[omkhar]

Ummmm no it doesn't. Their biggest clients are corporate contracts, who use their BlackBerries for internal company correspondance while they are mobile. The secure email is BES ... and that is not Internet. It is all handled by the BES server. All proprietary secure traffic. Now, once you send OUT ... you are correct.

Which is why I said OUTSIDE of your domain. To be clear using a BES is no more secure than sending email from your desktop, if you believe this to be secure then you and I clearly have different views on security.




I was saying that allowing wireless PIN or BES traffic using wifi is stupid because you negate the security of the blackberry network

Again, it *really* depends on your notion of security. If RIM determined a method to secure out bound BlackBerry data (my thought is using the same AES encryption they use currently) over the Internet in the same (OK, similar) manner to which your provider currently exchanges data with RIM what additional threat has been realized?

And once again, if you think your BlackBerry data doesn't make its way over the big bad Internet (encrypted....) right now, you should really pick up a book on BES Architecture.

[nuopus]

Which is why I said OUTSIDE of your domain. To be clear using a BES is no more secure than sending email from your desktop, if you believe this to be secure then you and I clearly have different views on security.

Of course its infinitely more secure. Email sent/received using POP/SMTP uses SSL for traffic IF it is used by your ISP. And cleartext traffic over SSL is very easy to read if your on a wifi link and any of the popular sniffing packages. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.


Again, it *really* depends on your notion of security. If RIM determined a method to secure out bound BlackBerry data (my thought is using the same AES encryption they use currently) over the Internet in the same (OK, similar) manner to which your provider currently exchanges data with RIM what additional threat has been realized?

I am not a BES admin, but it is to my understanding, talking to other BES admins, is that corporate BES mail does not traverse the Internet on the same domain. Only mail sent outside the domain goes across the Internet.

[omkhar]

I'll caveat all my comments below with the fact that I'm a security architect, so please understand my frustration with some of your comments below.

Of course its infinitely more secure. Email sent/received using POP/SMTP uses SSL for traffic IF it is used by your ISP. And cleartext traffic over SSL is very easy to read if your on a wifi link and any of the popular sniffing packages. But, that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

You're confusing a few things here.

1) SPOP/SSMTP is used for SSL tunneling client/server traffic
2) TLS is used to transmit email securely between your domain and others... providing it has been setup.
3) The terms SSL and clear text traffic are contradictory (unless you're using a null cipher for your SSL connection... but then why?)
4) SSL Tunnels are easy to break, you're right (reading up on how products like BlueProxy break SSL tunnels is left as an exercise to the reader)
5) A sniffer would not be able to break an SSL tunnel, but an SSL proxy with a proper certificate could.

But I digress... the topic at hand is the question of if BES traffic traverses the Internet.


I am not a BES admin, but it is to my understanding, talking to other BES admins, is that corporate BES mail does not traverse the Internet on the same domain. Only mail sent outside the domain goes across the Internet.

Your understanding is incorrect. At least one tier of the BES sits in your DMZ with connections across the Internet to RIM. How else do you think the message that you send on your wireless hand held ends up on your BES server? Like I said before, this data is encrypted prior to egressing your permieter, but there is no reason this couldn't be employed on the 8820 as well...