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Old 12-17-2005, 11:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Angry BES vs GOODLINK...

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Out of curiosity, anyone here buy the marketing hoopla put out by Goodlink that their solution is better than BES?

Goodlink states on their "Why Good is better than Blackberry" link, that their solution supports a wider variety of handheld devices. Now, although this may be true, if anyone who plans on supporting a wireless PDA THINKS about what Goodlink is actually saying, they might realize the following:

As a support person, I would rather use a system which supports a fewer number of devices and has more control over client devices as a result of proprietary hardware/software pairing.

Our company took this into mind and approached the situation with some intelligence and foresight into this market. Support fewer devices, have more control, and spend less time trying to figure out how each OS or Mobile device operates.

Does anyone else see the simplicity in using RIM and Blackberry versus using goodlink and "WHATEVER catches your CEO's eye at the Holiday party," device?
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:46 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Well my CEO had his eye caught a while back so we set up the trial of Good on a server and hooked up an brand new (at that time) treo 600 to it. I was not impressed from the server standpoint and he liked his 7230 much better than the 600. So that ended it there for us.
But I also agree with your point. the BB is sooo efficient at its small task I still haven't been happy with the windows mobile 5 devices with exchange push email.
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Old 12-18-2005, 11:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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They've made vast improvements since the early days of the 600, to my knowledge. With that said, I agree whole-heartedly to the original post from a support standpoint. Sure, from an end-user/executive perspective, it is a nice perk to have variety. From a technology standpoint, variety is not necessarily the best route - less is better. This is why most companies have a uniform selection of laptops and desktops in their corporations. This is why a company chooses either Microsoft Office or Open Office or whatever as their corporate productivity suite. Uniformity for support purposes is extremely important, and I don't see why it should not apply to a corporate wireless email solution, either.
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Old 12-18-2005, 04:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Have to throw my two cents in here. From a support standpoint, I can see where you get that thought. Look at it this way: With BB you can support 7520, 7100, 7730, 8700. All different devices. With GoodLink, there is a choice of operating systems, but GoodLink support is handled through the Good Management Console across the platforms. The email system (UI and functionality) is the same across the devices and OS'. If you run BB and your boss, or bosses boss comes in and says he saw the, let's say, Motorola Q and wants it to get his email, what do you tell him? Sorry, bosses boss, it is BB or nothing. He may accept that. But what if he doesn't?
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Red face

We provide laptops yearly to our force. this is on a 4 year rotation, about 1500 laptops per year are distributed. The total floating around at a given time is about 6000. We employ the same tactic with the laptops; all IBM all the same model, all the same image each rotation.

I mentioned in the original post our general dislike for goodlink, below are a few specifics which I wonder, have they been addressed:

1. Does goodlink offer the option to opt out of of synchronizing the inbox yet? Our CIO got way too much mail to answer when he was forced into getting all inbox traffic on his handheld. He HATED that! He wanted everything BUT the inbox synched.

2. Most non-Blackberry devices have SD (or similar) card slots. the inheherant security risk there for lost or misplaced cards is a risk to data. There is no guarantee that a remote kill command will rach ANY device, including BB, but you put an SD card into the mix and you have that much less of a chance of securing all the data if the device is lost or stolen.

3. Camera = Non sucrity conscious device. This is huge for us. We don't want our "approved" wireless PDA device to have a camera on it. it SCREAMS "security risk" all the way to Russia.

4. There were far fewer Administrative controls in Goodlink over the end user's PDA, that it didn't seem secure enough. Does Goodlink allow the myriad of options to lock down a PDA from an IT policy? I rather doubt it, but it's worth asking.

...and yes, we have a CIO who has been using a Palm OS based device for years, we convinced him, with the above, that BB was a MUCH better solution. He was reluctant, (took 14 months) but the 8700c sold him. If you get the CIO to sign off on the wireless device that his department will support, then when he brings in a non-compliant device, you get to say "Sorry guy, you can't use that here."

..Our president uses BB, that's how we got started, but that aside, I prefer BB and BES over Goodlink any day.

Thanks for the Input gents.
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Old 12-18-2005, 06:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I can also add that it is true, RIM's weak point is less variety of devices for companies that can't standardize on a single device provider.
RIM tries to address it with BBConnect. They sold Nokia on it, and others will follow.

Good's weak point they don't have standard device they can support forever and ever. It could be tough to buy software from Good, hardware from Bad Hardware Vendor and suffer because Bad Hardware Vendor doesn't care about your Good software issues, but Good can't help because these software issues are result of inherent hardware defects.

Good tried to address it with their G100 device, and it were brilliant move. Too bad, it looks like this device was discontinued, and there is no replacement for it. Too bad for Good.

Additionaly, Good is too obsessed with RIM. When company is obsessed with its competitor it could lose a focus.
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Old 12-18-2005, 06:17 PM   #7 (permalink)
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In response to Good_guy

Is Good suported on The Q? If not that is a invalid point. There are a ton of phones/wireless PDA's that Good does not support.
Given the fact that Microsoft is pushing their push Email solution I doubt they will put much effort into supporting Good in the near future.
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Old 12-18-2005, 06:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BES admin
We provide laptops yearly to our force. this is on a 4 year rotation, about 1500 laptops per year are distributed. The total floating around at a given time is about 6000. We employ the same tactic with the laptops; all IBM all the same model, all the same image each rotation.

I mentioned in the original post our general dislike for goodlink, below are a few specifics which I wonder, have they been addressed:

1. Does goodlink offer the option to opt out of of synchronizing the inbox yet? Our CIO got way too much mail to answer when he was forced into getting all inbox traffic on his handheld. He HATED that! He wanted everything BUT the inbox synched.
Optional sync is coming in a future release, however, I am curious. If he doesn't want his inbox sync'd, what does he want?

Quote:
2. Most non-Blackberry devices have SD (or similar) card slots. the inheherant security risk there for lost or misplaced cards is a risk to data. There is no guarantee that a remote kill command will rach ANY device, including BB, but you put an SD card into the mix and you have that much less of a chance of securing all the data if the device is lost or stolen.
GoodLink is FIPS 140-2 certified on the Palm, with the SD card. Gov't says it is secure enough. Anything Good puts on the card is encrypted. Good Mobile Defense (due in Jan) allows remote kill of SD card.

Quote:
3. Camera = Non sucrity conscious device. This is huge for us. We don't want our "approved" wireless PDA device to have a camera on it. it SCREAMS "security risk" all the way to Russia.
Then get a cameraless device.

Quote:
4. There were far fewer Administrative controls in Goodlink over the end user's PDA, that it didn't seem secure enough. Does Goodlink allow the myriad of options to lock down a PDA from an IT policy? I rather doubt it, but it's worth asking.
Can you give examples? GMD gives 100% control of the PDA from the admin.

Quote:
...and yes, we have a CIO who has been using a Palm OS based device for years, we convinced him, with the above, that BB was a MUCH better solution. He was reluctant, (took 14 months) but the 8700c sold him. If you get the CIO to sign off on the wireless device that his department will support, then when he brings in a non-compliant device, you get to say "Sorry guy, you can't use that here."
I have always said there is plenty of business for both Good and BB.

Quote:
..Our president uses BB, that's how we got started, but that aside, I prefer BB and BES over Goodlink any day.

Thanks for the Input gents.
Out of curiosity, when (read: what version) did you look at GoodLink.
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
I can also add that it is true, RIM's weak point is less variety of devices for companies that can't standardize on a single device provider.
RIM tries to address it with BBConnect. They sold Nokia on it, and others will follow.

Good's weak point they don't have standard device they can support forever and ever. It could be tough to buy software from Good, hardware from Bad Hardware Vendor and suffer because Bad Hardware Vendor doesn't care about your Good software issues, but Good can't help because these software issues are result of inherent hardware defects.
Bad hardware does allow good (no pun intended) software to suffer. Actually, the hardware manufacturers work very closely with us. We get devices for certification long before they are announced.

However, let the HW manufacturers improve the hardware (which they have, ie, the Treo 600 to the Treo 650 and the plethora of new devices coming out). Who does RIMM compete against? HP, Nokia, Motorola, etc or the OS guys in MSFT, PALM and Symbian or the application vendors like Good? Three front battle is tough. RIMM is a hardware company (at least over 60% of their revenue is from hardware) and they were, at one time, the only game in town. With Motorola, Nokia and HP jumping in the mix, that battle (ie, dwindling margins) is going to get tougher and tougher.


As for BB Connect, I have seen it and it is garbage. Extremely limited functionality and low end user interface, such as Versamail on the Treo. Nokia has chosen a wide variety of mail applications (GoodLink included) and with the purchase of Intellisync, if I were RIMM, I would not count on having a hero is Nokia.

Quote:
Good tried to address it with their G100 device, and it were brilliant move. Too bad, it looks like this device was discontinued, and there is no replacement for it. Too bad for Good.

Additionaly, Good is too obsessed with RIM. When company is obsessed with its competitor it could lose a focus.
The G100 was a nice device, however, Good's line of thinking is let the HW manufacturers do what they do best, the OS guys do what they do best and we will write the application, just like everything else in the high tech. MSFT doesn't manufacture processors, Intell doesn't write applications and Oracle does software. Focus on what you do best.

As for Good's supposed obsession on RIMM, they are the biggest player on the block, our largerst competitor. It isn't an obsession. It is taking on the market leader. Truth be said, my bigger concern was Intellisync until Nokia purchased them. It looks like they (Nokia) was going after the Intellisync middleware for back-office application access.
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwestcomm
In response to Good_guy

Is Good suported on The Q? If not that is a invalid point. There are a ton of phones/wireless PDA's that Good does not support.
And how many does RIMM support?

Quote:
Given the fact that Microsoft is pushing their push Email solution I doubt they will put much effort into supporting Good in the near future.
We have announced support of the Moto Q (I have seen GL on the Q), the Nokia E61, the HP 6500 series is shipping with Good preloaded.

Microsoft's email solution is not an enterprise solution. Security concerns have already come out and it won't support anything buyt WM5 devices and Exchange 2003. We su
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Old 12-18-2005, 08:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Optional sync is coming in a future release, however, I am curious. If he doesn't want his inbox sync'd, what does he want?
As stated, everything BUT the inbox. With BES you can specify sub folders of the inbox without specifying the inbox folder itself. Something I myself found kind of silly not to be able to exclude the Inbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
GoodLink is FIPS 140-2 certified on the Palm, with the SD card. Gov't says it is secure enough. Anything Good puts on the card is encrypted. Good Mobile Defense (due in Jan) allows remote kill of SD card.
...and what does the government use? I thought the DOJ was primarily BB devices? ...Due out in Japan in January, isn't here and now and wasn't then when we looked at devices with that capability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Then get a cameraless device.
right on, but as you pointed out, if someone has a device with a camera, like the CIO or CEO, then it would be better not to support the devices where camera was an option in the first place. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Can you give examples? GMD gives 100% control of the PDA from the admin.
any of these available on Goodlink:

Force LED Blinking When Microphone Is On
Force Content Protection of Master Keys
Allow Smart Card Password Caching
Disable IP Modem
Disable Unverified Certificate Use
Desktop Backup
Minimal Encryption Key Store Security Level
Minimal Signing Key Store Security Level
Disable Persisted Plaintext
Disable DES Transport Crypto
Security Service Colors
Disable Unverified CRLS
Allow Outgoing Call When Locked
FIPS Level
Disable Forwarding Between Services
Disable Radio When Cradled
Disable Cut/Copy/Paste
Disable Stale Status Use
Certificate Status Maximum Expiry Time
Disable Key Store Backup
Trusted Certificate Thumbprints
Disable Weak Certificate Use
Disable Invalid Certificate Use
Allow Split-Pipe Connections
Allow External Connections
Allow Internal Connections
Content Protection Strength
Allow Third Party Apps to Use Persistent Store
Allow Third Party Apps to Use Serial Port
Force Lock When Holstered
Disallow Third Party Application Downloads
Certificate Status Cache Timeout
Key Store Password Maximum Timeout
Disable Key Store Low Security
Disable Peer-to-Peer Normal Send
Disable Message Normal Send
Disable Revoked Certificate Use
Disable Untrusted Certificate Use
Force Smart Card Two Factor Authentication
Lock on Smart Card Removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
I have always said there is plenty of business for both Good and BB.
Maybe, I know there will always be a market for Goodlink as long as there are devices other than BB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Out of curiosity, when (read: what version) did you look at GoodLink.
I don't recall the version, but I know it was the latest from Goodlink last November - February? just prior to BES 4.0 coming out.
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Old 12-18-2005, 08:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BES admin
As stated, everything BUT the inbox. With BES you can specify sub folders of the inbox without specifying the inbox folder itself. Something I myself found kind of silly not to be able to exclude the Inbox.

...and what does the government use? I thought the DOJ was primarily BB devices? ...Due out in Japan in January, isn't here and now and wasn't then when we looked at devices with that capability.
Federal government is one of our biggest customers. Nowhere near what BB has, but again, they were first to market.

I don't know what you are talking about Japan. Good Mobile Defense is due out in Jan everywhere.

Quote:
right on, but as you pointed out, if someone has a device with a camera, like the CIO or CEO, then it would be better not to support the devices where camera was an option in the first place. ;)
Agreed. Don't support devices with cameras. But have the option to support them in organizations where they are a valuable tool, ie, Real Estate, Insurance, etc.

Quote:
any of these available on Goodlink:

Force LED Blinking When Microphone Is On
Force Content Protection of Master Keys
Allow Smart Card Password Caching
Disable IP Modem
Disable Unverified Certificate Use
Desktop Backup
Minimal Encryption Key Store Security Level
Minimal Signing Key Store Security Level
Disable Persisted Plaintext
Disable DES Transport Crypto
Security Service Colors
Disable Unverified CRLS
Allow Outgoing Call When Locked
FIPS Level
Disable Forwarding Between Services
Disable Radio When Cradled
Disable Cut/Copy/Paste
Disable Stale Status Use
Certificate Status Maximum Expiry Time
Disable Key Store Backup
Trusted Certificate Thumbprints
Disable Weak Certificate Use
Disable Invalid Certificate Use
Allow Split-Pipe Connections
Allow External Connections
Allow Internal Connections
Content Protection Strength
Allow Third Party Apps to Use Persistent Store
Allow Third Party Apps to Use Serial Port
Force Lock When Holstered
Disallow Third Party Application Downloads
Certificate Status Cache Timeout
Key Store Password Maximum Timeout
Disable Key Store Low Security
Disable Peer-to-Peer Normal Send
Disable Message Normal Send
Disable Revoked Certificate Use
Disable Untrusted Certificate Use
Force Smart Card Two Factor Authentication
Lock on Smart Card Removal
Wow. Pretty impressive list. Yes on some, no on others and I have no idea on others. The majority of those have not come up in discussions with my customers. Serious question, how many of those are key in most BB installations? Obviously there was a need somewhere along the way, but, in all seriousness, out of that list, how many of those features were part of the deciding factors for BES?

Quote:
I don't recall the version, but I know it was the latest from Goodlink last November - February? just prior to BES 4.0 coming out.
Version 4.0 was released in March. Entirely different from previous versions, though the inbox sync, which appeared to be the deal killer in your case, didn't change.
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Old 12-18-2005, 09:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Good_Guy:

I originaly did not mind your long diatribes, I was not aware of there being an option to the BB, not that it matters, because I am happy here with what I have got. So are most that are here thats why they come to this forum.

However Now I am getting tired, you are not going to get any converts with your long discourses. One thing is to enlighten and another it is to come in to the beehibe and try to stir the hornest nest. Let whoever wants to know more and maybe interested in your self serving dissertations, come to you and ask for it. Give it a rest.
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Old 12-19-2005, 02:24 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Easy KonTiki... I appreciate your defensive posture, however, GoodGuy is simply having dialoge with us. I appreciate his insight and respect his opinion.

Although I am a diehard BES admin, I am interested and open minded into the options available.

...in any event:

I agree that there is a space and place for items other than BB. But my guess is that anyone who has a serious need to take pictures, carries a fully capable digital camera and doesn't rely on a PDA camera for their regular day-to-day work.

As for the list of options provided, that is a list of only %25 of the available options used to manage the BB device. Which is my point. BES offers a much larger choice for fine grained control over the devices connected to it. It's not a matter of which options were factors in deciding the fate of the product, it was a matter of having the most choices in the product we chose. In this respect, BES outperformed Goodlink and I suspect, the same is true today.

the full list of BES side options can be found at one of my short posts here:

Complete list of BES 4.0.3 IT Policy Options...


I went back and looked, version 4.0 IS what we evaluated against BES 4.0... IMHO, still no competition between the two products. The fact that BES is proprietary is a huge bonus here, despite what Goodlink marketing states.

As a side note: I did have a one on one online session with Goodlink tech, it was supposed to be a demonstration with a Q&A afterward. The Q&A was more Marketing than a Q&A they provided little or no real detail on the product, they literally AVOIDED answering questions and when I came away from the session, I was no more informed about the product details than I was before hand. A complete waste of time. I never had the same experience with a RIM technical discussion.
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Old 12-19-2005, 02:36 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I have to add:

Aside from the technical differences between Goodlink and RIM, I will say this much about the simple process of obtaining BES and Good for evaluation:

RIM: I call they send a copy with a key. This was a short (less than one hour) process and I had what I needed.

Goodlink: I had to submit PURCHASING information and provide them with a signed agreemement, I am talking an actual signiture form I had to submit. Attached to a purchase agreement with real account numbers and everything. The whole process of obtaining an evaluation copy of their product was the SAME as purchasing the product. The only way to evaluate it was to buy it, with a 60 day trial, and when the 60 days expired, if you didn't cancel your subscription, they CHARGED you the full product license fee!!

Wow, talk about taking the evaluation to the next level! Dear GOD, that alone pissed off the managers and financial people who I had to get to do the paper work for assessing the Goodlink product.

I don't know if the model is the same, but Goodlink also charges an anual fee. In the long run, that annual fee was to continue using the service and without it, you couldn't continue using the product.

At least with RIM, as long as you don't need any additional licenses or the latest revision they are charging for, there is no additional and ongoing cost for using their service.
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:40 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonTiki
Good_Guy:

I originaly did not mind your long diatribes, I was not aware of there being an option to the BB, not that it matters, because I am happy here with what I have got. So are most that are here thats why they come to this forum.

However Now I am getting tired, you are not going to get any converts with your long discourses. One thing is to enlighten and another it is to come in to the beehibe and try to stir the hornest nest. Let whoever wants to know more and maybe interested in your self serving dissertations, come to you and ask for it. Give it a rest.
While you are entitled to your opinion, take a look at the subject of this thread.
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:47 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BES admin

I agree that there is a space and place for items other than BB. But my guess is that anyone who has a serious need to take pictures, carries a fully capable digital camera and doesn't rely on a PDA camera for their regular day-to-day work.
It isn't about taking pictures. Device choice, true 100% hands-off IT administration, additional feature functionality, etc.

Quote:
As for the list of options provided, that is a list of only %25 of the available options used to manage the BB device. Which is my point. BES offers a much larger choice for fine grained control over the devices connected to it. It's not a matter of which options were factors in deciding the fate of the product, it was a matter of having the most choices in the product we chose. In this respect, BES outperformed Goodlink and I suspect, the same is true today.
As I have said previously, there is a place for both solutions. As for being out performed, recent comparisons and reviews counter that statement. However, being that you are one of the few here who looked at both solutions, I accept your opinion.

Quote:
I went back and looked, version 4.0 IS what we evaluated against BES 4.0... IMHO, still no competition between the two products. The fact that BES is proprietary is a huge bonus here, despite what Goodlink marketing states.

As a side note: I did have a one on one online session with Goodlink tech, it was supposed to be a demonstration with a Q&A afterward. The Q&A was more Marketing than a Q&A they provided little or no real detail on the product, they literally AVOIDED answering questions and when I came away from the session, I was no more informed about the product details than I was before hand. A complete waste of time. I never had the same experience with a RIM technical discussion.
I understand your frustration with the online demo process. I would offer a demo to the users here, except the online flame fest I have no doucbt I would receive precludes me from that. In the demo I give, I answer any and all questions I am asked, whether the answer is good or bad. I, personally, would rather sell to existing BB customers rather than those with no solution at all. BB users get the concept and understand the need for real time wireless communication. Then it comes down to Good Vs BB and I relish the comparison.

Thanks for the flame-free discourse. I have learned alot here, not only about the BB/BES product, but also they types of users that are out there.
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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In regards to our sales model, I agree with you 100% that we made it extremely difficult to evaluate and purchase the product. With the change over to the indirect model, we have made things much easier. 60-day trial through the carrier. Cost structure has changed as well in that there are no annual fees.
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Old 12-19-2005, 08:35 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Good_Guy is alright... he doesn't lie, he doesn't shoot down BES or Blackberry, he just provides truths about Good. I am a devoted Blackberry person, but I also have significant Goodlink experience and have a Goodlink server.

Good_Guy has never done anything wrong on here, unlike some other Good advocates who are no longer here. I think the input that Good_Guy brings to BBF is great. For IT people to walk around uninformed about the various solutions that are available is just incompetent.

I think that any BES admin who reads around here should pay close attention to what Good_Guy says... why? Because what happens when 'the man' upstairs says 'Hey, have you heard of theis Good Technology stuff?'... at least you will be informed and know how to answer questions.

cd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonTiki
Good_Guy:

I originaly did not mind your long diatribes, I was not aware of there being an option to the BB, not that it matters, because I am happy here with what I have got. So are most that are here thats why they come to this forum.

However Now I am getting tired, you are not going to get any converts with your long discourses. One thing is to enlighten and another it is to come in to the beehibe and try to stir the hornest nest. Let whoever wants to know more and maybe interested in your self serving dissertations, come to you and ask for it. Give it a rest.
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Old 12-19-2005, 10:12 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Have to throw my two cents in here. From a support standpoint, I can see where you get that thought. Look at it this way: With BB you can support 7520, 7100, 7730, 8700. All different devices. With GoodLink, there is a choice of operating systems, but GoodLink support is handled through the Good Management Console across the platforms. The email system (UI and functionality) is the same across the devices and OS'. If you run BB and your boss, or bosses boss comes in and says he saw the, let's say, Motorola Q and wants it to get his email, what do you tell him? Sorry, bosses boss, it is BB or nothing. He may accept that. But what if he doesn't?
I don't think that's anywhere near a proper comparison, to be honest. No matter which BlackBerry device a person has, its the same in terms of support. I'm not sure how many corporate help desks are going to support the bluetooth features of the various devices, etc - we don't. Now tell me how a proprietary OS on multiple devices that are, for all intent purposes, the same is anywhere similar to multiple devices, multiple form factors, multiple OS's, multiple like-OS versions, etc. The only similarity that the Good product has on all devices is the version of your software. That's not to say that said software won't crash a device differently from one to the other, or that its less stable under certain conditions on one platform from another.

In a typical security-conscious corporate environment, I don't think Good's software-based product presents ANY competition for the propietary BlackBerry device and technology - this goes for uniformity and security.
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