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Old 08-27-2007, 04:19 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Blackberry + SBS without BES?

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I've read some bland comments on the web about this being possible, so I'm posting it here hoping that the gurus of this forum can advise me on what route to take.

I have a small business operation I am supporting, with only 2 blackberries max.
Server is running Microsoft Small Business Server 2003.

I'm familiar with BES, as I support it in my own company where we have hundreds of BB users, however for this small operation I am eyeballing the BES Express since it's free, and comes with a free CAL. (If I do choose this route it will NOT be installed on the SBS box )

Question is this:
Is it possible to achieve wireless calendar / exchange email syncronization / push without having to use BES? The BB units will have data accounts, if we are going to use the BES Express then they will have BES data accounts.
I've read about setting up SMTP connectors for the carrier and forwarding email through AD and possibly using the Outlook Mobile Access that I successfully configured on the SBS box, although I'm not sure where to take it from there, or if it will even work. Another suggestion involved exporting the https certificate from IIS on the SBS machine and importing onto the handheld?

Not sure were to go, but if anyone can provide me with a fluid method of using 2 blackberries with exchange email / calendar, I would be GREATLY appreciative!
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipnotik View Post
Is it possible to achieve wireless calendar / exchange email syncronization / push without having to use BES? The BB units will have data accounts, if we are going to use the BES Express then they will have BES data accounts.
Not really, no. BIS can get you email delivery, but not push email. There won't be calendar sync and no real email reconciliation.

You could use Desktop Redirector for email delivery and this would get you email reconcile, but not wireless and no attachment support at all.

Either way, you won't get wireless calendar synchronization.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:16 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWater View Post
BIS can get you email delivery, but not push email. There won't be calendar sync and no real email reconciliation.
This isn't completely accurate.
BIS absolutely provides push email, and does indeed support two-way wireless email reconciliation with certain providers. (GMail and Yahoo for example.)

All email on the BlackBerry is push email, regardledd of whether you use BES, BIS or Desktop Redirector.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin3107 View Post
This isn't completely accurate.
BIS absolutely provides push email, and does indeed support two-way wireless email reconciliation with certain providers. (GMail and Yahoo for example.)

All email on the BlackBerry is push email, regardledd of whether you use BES, BIS or Desktop Redirector.
But not in conjuction with OWA. If you use BIS to connect to your owa, it will poll e-mail and will not be true reconcilliation as darkwater said.

Your best bet will be to use BESx and buy an extra CAL. That will be the easiest solution, especially if you are already familiar with BES. There will be too many headaches trying to use BIS and syncing the calendar/contacts manually.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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listen to Di ... supporting a hack will be about as fun as eating rocks.
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Supporting BESX is so laughably cheap compared to the kludgely BIS/OWA alternative, that I'd question everyone's business acumen and sanity if you don't choose BESX in this case.
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladydi View Post
But not in conjuction with OWA. If you use BIS to connect to your owa, it will poll e-mail and will not be true reconcilliation as darkwater said.
Message delivery and message reconciliation are two different things.
Even with BIS/OWA, it's still push e-mail.
Agreed that you may lack full wireless reconciliation, but the message delivery is most certainly push. All message delivery on the BlackBerry is push.

Also agree that BESx is the best way for the OP to go.
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Another vote for going the BESx route. We have this running with SBS 2003 on an old Win2000 Server box and it works well. Even in our (relatively) small business, the single user that we have still appreciates wireless calendar/contacts sync etc. and the instant delivery that BES provides.

Whilst BIS/OWA does now provide reconciliation with BIS 2.3, there are still no folders, and given that BIS has a habit of "disconnecting" the account if the server goes down due to an extended power outage etc. I don't fancy getting calls to reconnect it through the carrier BIS page on a regular basis.

I'm going to try the upgrade route with an extra SBS CAL for 99 soon - we'll see how that works out...
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:12 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladydi View Post
But not in conjuction with OWA. If you use BIS to connect to your owa, it will poll e-mail and will not be true reconcilliation as darkwater said.

Your best bet will be to use BESx and buy an extra CAL. That will be the easiest solution, especially if you are already familiar with BES. There will be too many headaches trying to use BIS and syncing the calendar/contacts manually.
As ever the Lady speaketh the truth.

As well as reducing the support headache you will get more functionatility with BES not least calendar sync, sent email reconcilliation etc...

Just to add my $0.02 - run the BES on an XP Pro Box (shock / unsupported configuration slap etc) - you need the Windows Server Admin Tools and Exchange Sys Manager 1st. Make sure you stick on VNC or similar, and expect it to go down once a month or so - but it helps to keep the costs down for these small users.

One other cost consdieration - need 'enterprise' plan on the SIMS, not the "prosumer plan" but i guess you knew that anyway
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Old 09-04-2007, 10:58 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladydi View Post
But not in conjuction with OWA. If you use BIS to connect to your owa, it will poll e-mail and will not be true reconcilliation as darkwater said.

Your best bet will be to use BESx and buy an extra CAL. That will be the easiest solution, especially if you are already familiar with BES. There will be too many headaches trying to use BIS and syncing the calendar/contacts manually.

Message delivery and message reconciliation are two different things.
Even with BIS/OWA, it's still push e-mail.
Agreed that you may lack full wireless reconciliation, but the message delivery is most certainly push. All message delivery on the BlackBerry is push.







I disagree with you. Can you provide reference in regards to BIS using push instead of pull ?? You can setup whatever account with it and will not push the message except I beleive the one that you create initially *@rogers.blackbery.net for example. Also it will reconcile with that account only..

Last edited by fadmin : 09-04-2007 at 10:59 AM. Reason: wrong quote
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Old 09-04-2007, 01:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadmin View Post
I disagree with you. Can you provide reference in regards to BIS using push instead of pull ?? You can setup whatever account with it and will not push the message except I beleive the one that you create initially *@rogers.blackbery.net for example. Also it will reconcile with that account only..
The BIS version being used depends on the carrier, but generally they are the same. There are some e-mail clients that do indeed use push mail such as gmail and yahoo, but most others will be polled. I know that on my t-mobile BB, my mail from my personal exchange server (via owa) is pull, not push. Same with our nextel's too.

the @carrier.blackberry.net account is always push.
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Old 09-04-2007, 02:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fadmin View Post
I disagree with you. Can you provide reference in regards to BIS using push instead of pull ??
All mail on the BlackBerry is push mail. Every bit of it. BIS, BES, Desktop Redirector, POP, IMAP... whatever. It's all push mail.

Push vs. Pull is determined by the end-node's responsibility in the mail delivery process. If the client-side (handehld) initiates the request for messages to be delivered to it... it's pull. If the server-side (BIS, BES, DR) initiates the message delivery... it's push.
With a BlackBerry, the device itself NEVER requests a message delivery. It's always push.

Yes, BIS polls mailboxes for messages, however this is irrelevant when determining whether the BlackBerry device is behaving in a push vs. pull mode.
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Last edited by penguin3107 : 09-04-2007 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Quoted wrong post.
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Old 09-04-2007, 03:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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This is just semantics. When people think "push", they think instantaneous, when they think "pull", they think delay. In my original post, I never said "push" I said BIS with OWA "polls" and therefore it is not TRUE push - meaning there will be a delay. And there is no full reconcilliation.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladydi View Post
This is just semantics. When people think "push", they think instantaneous, when they think "pull", they think delay. In my original post, I never said "push" I said BIS with OWA "polls" and therefore it is not TRUE push - meaning there will be a delay. And there is no full reconcilliation.
No, it's not just semantics. It's about being accurate and explaining the technology for what it is... not what people "think" it is.

Push mail has nothing to do with timing, or being "instantaneous".
You can go ahead and refer to BIS as not being TRUE push, but you'll still be wrong.
BIS is true push, regardless of the fact that it sometimes polls the mail server for messages and creates a non-instantanteous delivery mechanism.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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All email on the BB is push.

Here's what's happening as I understand it:

(handheld) <-> (rim noc) <-> (BIS) --> \\mailbox(es)\\
|<--- push/reconcile ------------>|<---- poll ------->|


(handheld) <-> (rim noc) <-> (BES) --> \\mailbox \\
|<--- push/reconcile ------------>|<---- poll ------->|


It's just with certain circumstances the polling interval is more frequent. On BES, the frequency of the polling (from BES to corporate mailstore) is very aggressive. That's why BES appears to be instantaneous. The polling for [email address] and Gmail and Yahoo is likely to be equally aggressive on BIS. Other accounts polled by BIS have the documented delays before being polled. It's all polled then pushed. That's my understanding. Some guru, please correct me if I am wrong.

-Aroc

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footnote: It has been stated in forums such as these that the popular belief is that POP/IMAP/OWA/etc mail is polled less agressively, for reasons RIM feels may be related to performance or stability reasons. As short as every 2 minutes when a message was detected on the previous poll, then every 15 minutes after that when no messages are detected on the previous poll.

footnote: It is purported that GMail and yahoo have a special agreement with RIM that yields a more aggressive polling interval. But I don't know what mechanism or infrastructure (if anything) is in place to accomplish that.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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With Exchange its a little different as it doesn't poll mailboxes (except during rescans) ... by default it receives a UDP notification from Exchange about a new item and retrieves that item for delivery.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin3107 View Post
All mail on the BlackBerry is push mail. Every bit of it. BIS, BES, Desktop Redirector, POP, IMAP... whatever. It's all push mail.

Push vs. Pull is determined by the end-node's responsibility in the mail delivery process. If the client-side (handehld) initiates the request for messages to be delivered to it... it's pull. If the server-side (BIS, BES, DR) initiates the message delivery... it's push.
With a BlackBerry, the device itself NEVER requests a message delivery. It's always push.

Yes, BIS polls mailboxes for messages, however this is irrelevant when determining whether the BlackBerry device is behaving in a push vs. pull mode.
Well said, penguin3107. BIS (Blackberry Internet Service) is a services layer in the "network cloud" between the Blackberry handheld device and the email service being used. It's push from BIS to the device, and pull between BIS and the email service.
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleece View Post
Well said, penguin3107. BIS (Blackberry Internet Service) is a services layer in the "network cloud" between the Blackberry handheld device and the email service being used. It's push from BIS to the device, and pull between BIS and the email service.
In fact ... my BIS is push all the way. I have mail go to:

[email address] ... I then have a procmail rule set to forward mail to [email address] which goes to me device.
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