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Old 04-27-2016, 05:14 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

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By the way, don't know if you have looked at https://help.blackberry.com/en/bbm-s...560068192.html

That is stock BBM, not BBM Protected or BES.

The global key is something I don't like so much, but still I think it is good enough for most.
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Old 04-27-2016, 07:33 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

Yes, the global key is one reason why I made the better than nothing comment.
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At that level it is almost not worth it. But, as you say, it is a matter of personal choice. Unfortunately many, if not most, people haven't enough information to make a wise risk/benefit analysis.


Guess I should say I am not using a Blackberry.

Last edited by NoBox : 04-27-2016 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

If you and your contacts are are using iOS, Android or Windows Phone device (not BlackBerry devices), then it (BBM) is TLS, period.

https://help.blackberry.com/en/bbm-s...560098144.html
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Old 04-28-2016, 07:59 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

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Old 04-28-2016, 04:02 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
If you and your contacts are are using iOS, Android or Windows Phone device (not BlackBerry devices), then it (BBM) is TLS, period.

https://help.blackberry.com/en/bbm-s...560098144.html

My memory could be faulty, but I believe once the key is known in systems like TLS it is but a short, and easy step to reading the content.

Actually, no matter. We are focusing on encryption method is our later exchanges But, as I mentioned earlier that is only one of the reasons not to use BBM. I used to use BBM extensively on my Blackberries. But, that was in another time when relatively simple methods and encryption was sufficient. That time is past. Since their declared focus is on the corporate world it may be appropriate for it not to fit the needs of people like me.

I've played with both products over the past block of time. I have read all the RIM stuff on their product. For me, as an easy, flexible, relatively secure message application Whatsapp is a clear winner.

In addition Whatsapp says it handles voice. Haven't tried that yet. Not a focus for me. But, might play with it just for yuks. If I can ever find time to play, that is.

Last edited by NoBox : 04-28-2016 at 04:10 PM.
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Old 04-28-2016, 05:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

The way I read the BlackBerry white paper on the standard BBM, the global key that is hard coded on BlackBerry handsets only applies to BBM communication between BlackBerry handsets. It isn't in use in the case of non-Black devices.

And I'm not really clear on how the global key is used. Obviously it isn't used with the non-BlackBerry devices. Looking at the information on the standard BBM system and BlackBerry Protected, the BlackBerry Protected encryption is on top of the standard BBM TLS + global key. Is the TLS on top of the global key with BBM on BlackBerry handsets, or does TLS when BlackBerry handsets are involved use the key? It isn't clear to me; not yet anyway.

I'll have to get smarter about WhatsApp, just for the education. Just now, looking for information on the global key, I landed on some pages where WhatsApp end-to-end encryption was being discussed. Lots of back and forth over whether it is really end-to-end encryption, the keys and where they are, etc. Just like internet debates everywhere. People seem to pick sides. Hard to discern the truth without lots of digging.
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Old 04-28-2016, 07:46 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

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Old 04-28-2016, 09:35 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

After some more reading and re-reading, here is what I understand....

Where there is TLS, it is between the device and the server.

TLS does not use the BlackBerry BBM global key that is hard-coded on BlackBerry handsets. The global key is for the triple DES "scrambling". So the TLS is on top of the triple DES. But so far as it makes sense to me, the communication for standard BBM travels BlackBerry servers either unencrypted or else "scrambled" using global key, depending on the devices involved. From device across mobile network or Internet the communication is encrypted using TLS if the devices are involved are BB10 or iOS, Android, or Windows Phone.

BBM Protected and BBM Protected Plus, subscription services, provide end-to-end encryption that is unreadable even by BlackBerry. Not standard BBM.
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Old 04-29-2016, 09:53 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

And that illustrates the RIM mindset.

On the other hand documentation and use of What's app is straight forward. Security does not depend on hardware used or routing.
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Old 04-30-2016, 08:18 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

NoBox, I'm getting the impression you like WhatsApp over BBM
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Old 04-30-2016, 01:19 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

Quote:
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And that illustrates the RIM mindset.

On the other hand documentation and use of What's app is straight forward. Security does not depend on hardware used or routing.
If you mean mindset about collecting and brokering advertisements and who knows what else from your personal information, then ditto, I agree.

I'm guessing several things about WhatsApp rolling out end-to-end encryption....

* WhatsApp has a lot to make up for given past security issues. I know this probably doesn't register for the average user, but negativity builds and eventually those who didn't know or care suddenly become aware even if they don't understand.

* Digital and mobile privacy is so hot right now. It is great marketing to leverage it. But it is debatable how important end-to-end encryption is to 99% of users. And then you figure the users so worried about their chat app having data in transit encryption end to end, but don't lock their device, root it, and give no thought to the data on the device.

* Yes, BlackBerry should be giving away end to end encryption rather than charging for it. I cringe when I read, "But that is about the consumer <fill in the blank> and not our enterprise <fill in the blank>.

* No need to rehash the information that is provided as well as can be derived from metadata. I think what is evident is Facebook is happy without the content, and metadata is plenty valuable, than you very much.
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:13 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
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NoBox, I'm getting the impression you like WhatsApp over BBM
Don't know why you would say that
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:47 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
If you mean mindset about collecting and brokering advertisements and who knows what else from your personal information, then ditto, I agree.

I'm guessing several things about WhatsApp rolling out end-to-end encryption....

* WhatsApp has a lot to make up for given past security issues. I know this probably doesn't register for the average user, but negativity builds and eventually those who didn't know or care suddenly become aware even if they don't understand.

* Digital and mobile privacy is so hot right now. It is great marketing to leverage it. But it is debatable how important end-to-end encryption is to 99% of users. And then you figure the users so worried about their chat app having data in transit encryption end to end, but don't lock their device, root it, and give no thought to the data on the device.

* Yes, BlackBerry should be giving away end to end encryption rather than charging for it. I cringe when I read, "But that is about the consumer <fill in the blank> and not our enterprise <fill in the blank>.

* No need to rehash the information that is provided as well as can be derived from metadata. I think what is evident is Facebook is happy without the content, and metadata is plenty valuable, than you very much.
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We may have a bit different opinions on the need for content encryption. My experience is that for most people everything should be private. That is the approach that governs HIPPA. Then, if a person wants to disclose their personal info that is their perogitive. I venture to say most people. don't have a clue how seemingly innocuous information can be damaging in the wrong hands.

Guess I don't understand the repeated references to Facebook. My understanding is that Facebook owns Whatsapp and nothing more. There is some history. But it is just that, history.

My disaffection with BlackBerry began when I purchased some Playbooks. They didn't perform as generally advertised. But, if a person read all, not just some, of the tech specs a person saw what they were really about. What a chore since they assumed an uncommon level of familiarity with BB devices and policies.

Then, after spending literally hours on the phone with BB and being told to send one Playbook in for repair, I was asked to acknowledge that if their testing showed no malfunction it would be returned and I would be charged for a new device. Not shipping and a service fee (although that would be unfair since they asked for the device) a new device. Since BB documentation was such a convoluted mess that was a real concern.

No need to belabor the points. Witness our discussion about the various flavors of BBM. Blackberry hasn't changed. In today's world that is fatal. Even enterprise has gone beyond BB. One company I'm aware of dumped BB in favor of Samsung and a different, more suitable server package.

Oh well, companies come and go.

At some point you folks will get tired of this and you'll go too. Hmmm, wonder if someone, somewhere is still posting about Kaypro?
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Old 04-30-2016, 09:13 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

Facebook owns WhatsApp, yes, and there is more to it than that. My dislike is such that I tend to use Facebook as a type. And Google as well. You can bet WhatsApp is selling whatever data it gleans, to Facebook, to any buyer. That was my wisecrack: WhatsApp has made a cold business decision. Your metadata is valuable enough to buyers and users that WhatsApp can afford to miss out on the data.

I don't disagree with the gist of the first paragraph. It's not so that I disagree with need to encrypt content end-to-end. My point is perspective. What is the actual risk. What is it you are protecting. How does the one piece work with all the other pieces.

PlayBook was a disaster. And it was a huge disappoint to users who bought one. BlackBerry messed up. I guess I'm a big enough fan I wasn't driven away. And I still use my PlayBook to browse and post on the forums, read news sites in the browser, and for email. Wife still uses hers. But, yeah, BlackBerry earned much ill will with that bungle.

Don't know what I'll do if BB10 is eventually abandoned totally as most expect will happen (and many believe has happened). I won't use an Android device or an iPhone, not as personal device. I'll switch to dumb phone first.

Different strokes.
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Old 05-01-2016, 12:15 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

Companies including the one I work for in the past requested new applicants for employment the password for their Facebook page to "review" the postings and " attitude" of the person.
Well guess what? Company's no longer need to ask the perspective employees for the password. Facebook does sell access to the pages regardless of the security set by the user. Companies are using social media to do "background" checks and the user thinks because they don't ask the company does not check anymore.
How many people bother to read fully the service agreement before checking yes!.
Most don't even realize the service agreement contains a Data Policy agreement where Facebook can and does share information with Vendors, service providers and other partners. they agree not to disclose your info but seem to be free to use it for their needs. Translation = Employee hiring.

SO now do you think WhatsApp is so secure? I tend to agree with aiharkness in that caution is needed with any personal info.
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Old 05-01-2016, 05:31 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

So when you say "Facebook"you really mean all social media companies. Also, the Permissions and Terms and Conditions of Apps let companies snoop a lot more than people realize. Yep.

Also, under the guise of "security" financial institutions snoop by providing "security " software that protects them, but opens your machine, bypassing firewalls.

An employer who cannot show a direct national security or law enforcement need but wants my passwords is not someone I will work for. Simple. That reveals a hostile work environment.

As I said before, Metadata is impossible to hide in the electronic world. After all, for the most part it is the headers of messages and the routing information when using the internet. So I don'the worry about it.
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Old 05-01-2016, 05:54 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

"So I don'the worry about it."

and that is exactly what they count on.
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Old 05-01-2016, 07:11 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: BBM or Whatsapp?

We are going in circles now. I will try and clarify before moving on.

1. I think encrypted messages between client and server is good enough for most users, particularly for a case like BBM where the communication is peer to peer and only transits the server and isn't stored on the server.

2. I don't knock end to end encryption, and only point out that it isn't the be all and end all of security. For someone who actually needs it for sensitive business or where regulations or ethical requirement make it necessary, it then becomes a piece of the overall security solution.

As this thread proceeded I realized we all know this. But it makes me shake my head when I read other users worried about end to end encryption and yet don't know the first thing about it. And those same people complain about not being able to root their BlackBerry, complain about not being able to unlock the BlackBerry because they can't remember their password, can't understand why someone can't look up their BlackBerry ID for them, etc, etc.

3. About metadata, it is one thing for the metadata trail to be there for someone to follow if they take an interest. It's another thing to be concerned about the security of your business or your privacy and in turn use a service that you know is collecting and selling your metadata and whatever else they have on you. Fine, you don't feel the need to try and hide or obfuscate your metadata, but if you feel the need to go all the way on end to end encryption, why use a service that you know is tracking you and selling the data any way it can? That's where I see the flaw in the logic.
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