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Old 11-10-2005, 02:40 PM   #21 (permalink)
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This is an interesting thread.

I have personal experience in deploying over 40 Bes and 40 Goodlink Servers. I have had in my professional career deploying units as well...

1. Treo 600
2. Treo 650
3. Ipaq 6316
4. Blackberry 6...
5. Blackberry 7100.

The concept behind both bes and goodlink are exactly the same. In my experience, debugging and assisting the developers, good link is a complete ripoff of bes.

The "Good" or Goodlink moto at the time i was deploying there crap, was that rim is a hardware company, they never designed a true smartphone. Come over to goodlink where you can choose from over 15 devices to run mailbox synchronization.....

I had three devices on goodlink, the two palms and the ipaq. I went though daily freezes and reboots. The service worked well, when it was up. I experienced outages once every two weeks. This was really freaking annoying because all my clients would call me and ask if there goodlink server was down....

My experience with Bes-

It it the orginal and it works! It works damn well! After having all those devices, nothing beats the jog wheel. The fact that i can do most things with one hand with the blackberry makes me very very happy.

For awhile i was a goodlink fan, only because rim had the worst devices. But now with the 7100 and the upcoming 8700... Everyone will be running out to buy these puppies. Why? Because they work! They are easy to use! They take a big licking and keep on ticking.

There is a reason why many people have not heard of goodlink... 1. you need a server for it. 2. it is very very expensive. 3. It was a ripped idea from a huge company.

Last but not least,

I was getting worried that good would get more exposure with its clients being preloaded with newer smartphones. But it is to my surprise that the treo's now have blackberry connect on them.

the bottom line is.

I love my blackberry! there is no other smartphone that compares to it!
the only thing i love as much as my blackberry in a technology standpoint is my psp.

Regardless though, i think people have a right to their opinions.
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Old 11-10-2005, 02:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkF
I've been to Good Technologies campus several times and am fairly familiar with their product. I'd have to say if our company was just now venturing into rolling out wireless email, we may very well have gone with Good. As it is we now have 7 BES w/3000 users and there is no way it makes sense to convert at this point.
regretably i was involved in a goodlink/treo deployment for 10,000 employees of
KPMG. btw.. they weren't ota setups either.

Imagine the money involved with that! I had about 43 doa treo's.

Last edited by krad : 11-10-2005 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 11-10-2005, 02:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinK
Goodlink would be more appealing it it worked on current Blackberry devices---not just the old C++ ones. Since the Blackberry Connect deals certainly aren't moving very fast, something that went the other route (already worked on most everything else--and just added Blackberry device support) would be somewhat appealing. Wonder if Goodlink can do remote device (or at least mail/calendar/contact) wipes, password policies & lockouts, etc? Seems like with Palm/PocketPC devices, there is a lot of things that would be outside the Goodlink control and make security folks uneasy.
RIMM does not want GoodLink to run on their devices, as we used to run on the 900/957. As for your questions re: security, yes, yes and yes. We are FIPS 140-2 certified (as is RIMM). We also announced Good Mobile Defense which takes security to another level. http://www.good.com/index.php/pr_2005110705_a.html
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Old 11-10-2005, 03:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krad
The "Good" or Goodlink moto at the time i was deploying there crap, was that rim is a hardware company, they never designed a true smartphone. Come over to goodlink where you can choose from over 15 devices to run mailbox synchronization.....

I had three devices on goodlink, the two palms and the ipaq. I went though daily freezes and reboots. The service worked well, when it was up. I experienced outages once every two weeks. This was really freaking annoying because all my clients would call me and ask if there goodlink server was down....
May I ask when this was and what carrier the devices were? Obviously, device issues raise their head and, fair or not, that reflects on the applications, ie. Good.
Quote:
My experience with Bes-

It it the orginal and it works! It works damn well! After having all those devices, nothing beats the jog wheel. The fact that i can do most things with one hand with the blackberry makes me very very happy.

For awhile i was a goodlink fan, only because rim had the worst devices. But now with the 7100 and the upcoming 8700... Everyone will be running out to buy these puppies. Why? Because they work! They are easy to use! They take a big licking and keep on ticking.
RE: BES works

I can point to numerous posts on this very forum that argue that point. All that being said, I am not trying to say Good deployments are a breeze for everyone, however, blanket statements about anything can be misleading.

Unfortunately, the sales numbers don't back your statement about the 7100. Uptake has been highly disappointing. Now, the 8700 is a very nice device. I am actually looking forward to seeing one.

Quote:
There is a reason why many people have not heard of goodlink... 1. you need a server for it. 2. it is very very expensive. 3. It was a ripped idea from a huge company.
1. It is an enterprise solution, so it compares to someone running BES, which requires a server.

2. Actually, it is less expensive than a comparble BES deployment.

3. This is called innovation. Take something and improve upon it (at least in some people's opinion). If the courts hold up, one could say that RIMM ripped off patents for their entire system. (DISCLAIMER: I think NTP are a bunch of blood sucking leeches)

While the consumer has not heard of BB, IT departments have for the simple reason they are looking for alternatives to BB. The analysts have heard of us, the reviewers have heard of us. Are we Blackberry as it relates to market brand? Nope. Brilliant marketing on the part of RIMM that has been very, very successful. Don't think you will Danny Shader in an Amex ad anytime soon.

Quote:
I was getting worried that good would get more exposure with its clients being preloaded with newer smartphones. But it is to my surprise that the treo's now have blackberry connect on them.
The new HP device, the new Nokia device all have GL preloaded. There are not any Treos shipping in the US with BB Connect. I will, for one, be glad when it does ship as I have seen it and it will be very disappointing to previous BB users, but that is another thread entirely.

Quote:
I love my blackberry! there is no other smartphone that compares to it!
the only thing i love as much as my blackberry in a technology standpoint is my psp.
As you said, all are entitled to their opinion. I love my Treo and wouldn't trade it for any BB device in the world. Contrary to what many may think, I don't think BB is going anywhere. There is plenty of business for both organizations. However, I am of the opinion that RIMM's glory days are slowing down. Are they going the way of Netscape? Not a chance. However, I do see them heading the way of 3Com. They used to be the largest networking hardware company in the world. Bottom line: no single entity will rule this space.
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Old 11-10-2005, 03:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
RIMM does not want GoodLink to run on their devices, as we used to run on the 900/957. As for your questions re: security, yes, yes and yes. We are FIPS 140-2 certified (as is RIMM). We also announced Good Mobile Defense which takes security to another level. http://www.good.com/index.php/pr_2005110705_a.html
I think we'd look harder at GoodLink if we were doing our deployment now--and wish we had looked harder at them initially. They'll certainly be at the top of our list to trial if RIM allows this case to end with even a temporary ban on devices.

I agree with many of the points krad makes about the simplicity of the single device type and lack of options and third party software (maybe that will come with the decent speed of the 8700). On the other hand, third party software is simply not there yet--and there may be some legitimate need for business software only available on PocketPC/Palm. I've used both touch & scroll handhelds, and I think they both work well. Since the Blackberry lacks many options, the scroll wheel is great in its limited role. On the other hand, I can think of plenty of third-party PocketPC or Palm apps that would be horrible on a scroll wheel.

I hope RIM cant sort out a settlement deal or otherwise avoid losing service--but I will certainly be looking elsewhere if they don't.
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Old 11-10-2005, 03:09 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkF
I've been to Good Technologies campus several times and am fairly familiar with their product. I'd have to say if our company was just now venturing into rolling out wireless email, we may very well have gone with Good. As it is we now have 7 BES w/3000 users and there is no way it makes sense to convert at this point.
What if I made it worth your while? Got some great deals right now.

Kidding...
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Old 11-10-2005, 03:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinK
I think we'd look harder at GoodLink if we were doing our deployment now--and wish we had looked harder at them initially. They'll certainly be at the top of our list to trial if RIM allows this case to end with even a temporary ban on devices.

I agree with many of the points krad makes about the simplicity of the single device type and lack of options and third party software (maybe that will come with the decent speed of the 8700). On the other hand, third party software is simply not there yet--and there may be some legitimate need for business software only available on PocketPC/Palm. I've used both touch & scroll handhelds, and I think they both work well. Since the Blackberry lacks many options, the scroll wheel is great in its limited role. On the other hand, I can think of plenty of third-party PocketPC or Palm apps that would be horrible on a scroll wheel.

I hope RIM cant sort out a settlement deal or otherwise avoid losing service--but I will certainly be looking elsewhere if they don't.

Interesting point is the new Motorola phone has a scroll wheel.

As for the NTP case, I think RIMM will settle. Neither RIMM nor NTP want a shut-down. I think it will be extremely expensive for RIMM, but they will settle.
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:21 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Wow... this is the most productive Good vs RIM debate I think I have ever seen. Haven't dealt with both, been to training from both. Installed both several times. Personally have both on my 12mile server, I have to say that from the server perspective, they are neck and neck. Both are making innovations both are moving ahead. It's a fact that Good got started because they were given access to the source code tree at RIM. Good's pricing model is OK, except when it comes to the data side of things... I don't know how much it has changed, but it used to be min $25k usd for GoodData plus 5k per year for a maintenance contract... wow... MDS is free.

Good's data transformation services are really cool... RIM has MDS studio now...

Here's where RIM wins... the mobile hardware is rock solid. They build the entire system, and rely on no other software for the mobile side of things. Good is just an application that has to run on top of someone elses OS... big mistake.

Good isn't bad because of something they have done (although marketing strategy could be argued here), they are having problems because the devices that they have been supported on, quite frankly suck.

Now that more stable handhelds are coming to market, that support goodlink, there may be a small shift in the tide. As well, RIM isn't making the bulletproof bricks they have been known for, opting for style over durability as it seems.

Besides an injunction shutting down RIM in the US, there is now way that Good will overtake RIM in market share in the forseeable future, but that doesn't mean that Good makes a bad product. They just haven't had the kind of handhelds that people like.

cd.
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Old 11-10-2005, 09:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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and to further this conversation...

anyone who says Good sucks, or BES sucks because they had problems installing it, whichever one, would have most likely had the same problems installing the other one as well. The only time that someone is going to run into serious issues installing either product is when their house isn't in order. These people that have problems with either one should most likely consider a different career, because if you enterprise email is working properly, both BES and Goodlink are a breeze to install and setup.

As well... any organization who has not heard of RIM, Good *and* Verio, yet implemented one of the three should have their IT department fired. There is no reason not to consider all three (except for maybe Verio).

And like I said before, now that Good is being supported on more handhelds, that are getting more stable everyday, there is no reason not to check out Good as a possible solution for push email. Don't get me wrong, I am a Blackberry die hard, but I am also willing to admit that a RIM solution isn't for every single company, nor am I that closed minded to think that there is nothing that compares to RIM.

For anyone who reads this, who is considering implementing push email, Good should definately be considered, even though there are lingering rumours and thoughts about whether Good really has a future.

cd.
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:08 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey@12mile
Wow... this is the most productive Good vs RIM debate I think I have ever seen. Haven't dealt with both, been to training from both. Installed both several times. Personally have both on my 12mile server, I have to say that from the server perspective, they are neck and neck. Both are making innovations both are moving ahead. It's a fact that Good got started because they were given access to the source code tree at RIM. Good's pricing model is OK, except when it comes to the data side of things... I don't know how much it has changed, but it used to be min $25k usd for GoodData plus 5k per year for a maintenance contract... wow... MDS is free.

Good's data transformation services are really cool... RIM has MDS studio now...
What you are stating as fact isn't necessarily so, but being that neither of us was with Good or RIMM 5 years ago, we will leave it at that.

As for data, the pricing model has been dramatically changed. MDS is free, yes, but the third-party add-ins and development time of MDS vs GoodAccess makes the TCO of GoodAccess lower. Now, bear in mind, that was before MDS 4.1 with the design studio, which I have not seen, but my gut tells me that with the studio, things have changed.




Quote:
Here's where RIM wins... the mobile hardware is rock solid. They build the entire system, and rely on no other software for the mobile side of things. Good is just an application that has to run on top of someone elses OS... big mistake.
Let's see. Good has done what the entire PC industry has done: let someone else build the hardware, we build the app that runs on it. Yet, it is a mistake? Analysts all agree that when we dropped the hardware side of things, we made the right choice and that the biggest knock against RIM (before BBC and BBI) was that they don't run on anything but their own devices. Companies that try to do it all have always failed. Apple and Wang to name two.
Quote:
Good isn't bad because of something they have done (although marketing strategy could be argued here), they are having problems because the devices that they have been supported on, quite frankly suck.

Now that more stable handhelds are coming to market, that support goodlink, there may be a small shift in the tide. As well, RIM isn't making the bulletproof bricks they have been known for, opting for style over durability as it seems.
My point regarding this was earlier in the thread. Issues with the devices are often pointed to as the fault of the application. Fair or unfair, it happens. I see the wireless market as being very similar to the PC market 10-12 years ago. The hardware could not keep up with the software. Eventually, the two lines crossed. The same thing is happening now. The software, ie GoodLink, is ahead of the capabilities of the hardware. However, based on the new devices that have been announced (and some that haven't) the delta is shrink much faster than it did with the PC market.

Quote:
Besides an injunction shutting down RIM in the US, there is now way that Good will overtake RIM in market share in the forseeable future, but that doesn't mean that Good makes a bad product. They just haven't had the kind of handhelds that people like.
Again, a differing opinion here. Will we pass RIMM this year or next? Probably not. However, Treo sales have grown faster over the last two quarters than BB sales (percentage, not quantity). Add that to the new Motorola, HP and Nokia devices, I think we can catch RIMM much sooner than later, regardless of an injunction. Our growth rate is much higher than RIMM (again, percentage) quarter over quarter...I know, we are private, so I can pretty much say what I want, but even the numbers we do publish (roughly 3K customers beginning of this year, over 8K now) show that. Arguments to that: RIMM has such a large subscriber base that percentages aren't fair. Well, with let's say 4MM subscribers in a potential of over 200MM subscribers, there is still plenty of room. I have said it before, I will say it again and again: Good, nor anybody else for that matter (MSFT included) will knock completely down. Email is becoming a commodity product. 18-24 months, nobody will be paying for email. The company that innovates and takes the next step will be the one who wins. Going to be fun to watch.
cd.[/quote]
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Old 11-10-2005, 10:11 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey@12mile
For anyone who reads this, who is considering implementing push email, Good should definately be considered, even though there are lingering rumours and thoughts about whether Good really has a future.

cd.



For anyone who reads this, who is considering implementing push email, RIMM should definately be considered, even though there are lingering rumours and thoughts about whether the RIMM network will even be running next week.

All fun aside, those rumors are unfounded. Gartner's last report took financial viabilty into consideration. Good actually finished ahead of RIMM in completeness of vision and was just a hair below being in the upper right quadrant (Leaders) with RIMM.
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Old 11-11-2005, 03:04 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
You BES Admin types would probably know this better than I, but I would think that within the RIMM NOC, they can see the device information, including the send from address. While it may take a while, couldn't they, technically, white-list certain addresses or domains, ie .gov?
Huh?

At the RIM NOC, all they can see is the device ID (the PIN, as its known) and the BES ID (the SRP, as its known). All else is encrypted with either AES or 3DES, so is garbled to anyone looking at it.

Please don't tell me that Good data is as transparent as that? What a security nightmare that would be if you could see sender/recipient data!
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Old 11-11-2005, 07:14 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Good_Guy... my point with the pricing is only from a year ago... when we first heard wind of the Good data side, we were pretty enthused about it. When we found out about the price we all but ruled it out. We did hear however that the prices had been changed.

What I said about RIM building both hardware and software being the reason they are way out in the lead is true. Good makes a product very comparible to RIM... but in Canada where 6 months ago the only choices you had to run it were the Treo 600 and 650. The OS on the Treo sucks. It's not Good that makes the device reboot all the time, it's the OS. RIM doesn't have this problem. I guarantee that if the Treo wasn't such a pain to use because of it's flakey OS, Good would have a much bigger subscriber base.

I understand what your point is regarding hardware and software, the PC industry and everything, but you have to admit that the problems that the Treo has had has hurt Good. I also said that now that some more stable platforms are being marketed that support Good, more people will use Good.

You are completely correct about the next 24 months... they are going to be fun to watch... What I think may be the spoiler is the Nokia push mail solution. They have most likely the largest mobile customer base in the world right now... should be interesting to see if their solution skyrockets, or crash's and burns.

cd.
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Old 11-11-2005, 07:19 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoThumbs
Huh?

At the RIM NOC, all they can see is the device ID (the PIN, as its known) and the BES ID (the SRP, as its known). All else is encrypted with either AES or 3DES, so is garbled to anyone looking at it.

Please don't tell me that Good data is as transparent as that? What a security nightmare that would be if you could see sender/recipient data!
Dude... RIM can see every 1 and 0 going through their relay unencrypted. You should read a little bit more about how this stuff really works. Do you really believe that federal agencies would allow something like this to run, without the ability to wiretap it?

Yes, everything is encrypted, but yes, RIM can decrypt everything that goes through if need be.

I think the way that they would implement a selective data flow would be through IMEI or PIN registration. Whitelist an explicit set of IMEI's or PIN's to push data to, the rest are shutdown. Not that it will ever come to that.

cd.
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Old 11-11-2005, 08:16 AM   #35 (permalink)
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wow..i like this..question does good have a push email solution for regular users like rimm has there bwc? if so i think that would help them also..it would be an option
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:13 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoThumbs
Huh?

At the RIM NOC, all they can see is the device ID (the PIN, as its known) and the BES ID (the SRP, as its known). All else is encrypted with either AES or 3DES, so is garbled to anyone looking at it.

Please don't tell me that Good data is as transparent as that? What a security nightmare that would be if you could see sender/recipient data!
The device ID is tied to a specific email address that I would be almost positive the RIMM NOC can see. I am not talking about the actual data. No, we cannot see the data within the AES encrypted packet, by the way. The key is on the GL server and the device.
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:23 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I just wrote a blog post on RIMarkable where I ask a question about if NTP and RIM were to settle in light of an injunction that looks more and more likely and will paraphrase and ask it again here.

If they do settle but the U.S. patents office eventually upholds their finding that all of NTP's patents are invalid, is RIM just out of the dough that they have to cough up to keep operating now?

http://www.rimarkable.com/archives/392
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:26 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey@12mile
Good_Guy... my point with the pricing is only from a year ago... when we first heard wind of the Good data side, we were pretty enthused about it. When we found out about the price we all but ruled it out. We did hear however that the prices had been changed.
I just wanted to clarify that our pricing has changed.

Quote:
What I said about RIM building both hardware and software being the reason they are way out in the lead is true. Good makes a product very comparible to RIM... but in Canada where 6 months ago the only choices you had to run it were the Treo 600 and 650. The OS on the Treo sucks. It's not Good that makes the device reboot all the time, it's the OS. RIM doesn't have this problem. I guarantee that if the Treo wasn't such a pain to use because of it's flakey OS, Good would have a much bigger subscriber base.
Our international coverage has been an issue due to device sales. However, with wider acceptance of the Treo internationally, the new devices (primarily Nokia) and the fact that Good does not require agreements with individual carriers because of Global Connect, we have moved steadily in the right direction internationally. However, you are very correct that RIMM has a huge lead outside the United States. Have you seen the breakdown of BB users between North America/United States (not trying to sound jingoistic as I consider Canada international) and the rest of the world.
Quote:
I understand what your point is regarding hardware and software, the PC industry and everything, but you have to admit that the problems that the Treo has had has hurt Good. I also said that now that some more stable platforms are being marketed that support Good, more people will use Good.
Yes and no. The problems with the Treo are not 'treo-wide'. They seem to be more carrier specific, ie, Cingular seems to have more issues than Sprint. The 600 hurt dramatically and, IMHO, was released too early, but the 650 has been much more stable.

Quote:
You are completely correct about the next 24 months... they are going to be fun to watch... What I think may be the spoiler is the Nokia push mail solution. They have most likely the largest mobile customer base in the world right now... should be interesting to see if their solution skyrockets, or crash's and burns.
Did you know that Nokia ships more devices in a week than RIMM has shipped since the beginning of time? Amazing statistic. Now, granted, the majority of those are consumer cell phones, but their cover is far reaching. Their first shot at a QWERTY device will be interesting. I have seen the device and it is very sexy. Stability has never been a concern for the Symbian OS before, but it will be interesting to see how their foray into smart devices works out and I agree with you completely that they, not necesarily MSFT, will be the determining factor in all of this.
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:28 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamcrn
wow..i like this..question does good have a push email solution for regular users like rimm has there bwc? if so i think that would help them also..it would be an option
Our only solution is a server-based product. We, it appears, have hung our hat on the enterprise marketplace and are staying away (for the time being) from the consumer/prosumer space.
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Old 11-11-2005, 09:54 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corey@12mile
Dude... RIM can see every 1 and 0 going through their relay unencrypted. You should read a little bit more about how this stuff really works. Do you really believe that federal agencies would allow something like this to run, without the ability to wiretap it?

Yes, everything is encrypted, but yes, RIM can decrypt everything that goes through if need be.

I think the way that they would implement a selective data flow would be through IMEI or PIN registration. Whitelist an explicit set of IMEI's or PIN's to push data to, the rest are shutdown. Not that it will ever come to that.

cd.
w

Corey - where can I read about "how this stuff really works?"

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