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Old 10-18-2012, 08:57 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Most people dont need mobile email. They want something simple which makes fun/proud/feels good etc. especially, when there are short moments of emptyness in the brain.

When Blackberry was "cool" it was because people who could make use of mobile email (and the blackberry was the only device which made this easy), used and use the Blackberry in just these situations to make actual use of this otherwise "lost" time.

Because of this, everyone who not had a blackberry and was not able use something else did get jealous. With BBM and mail RIM had an enormous success.

But this customer segment will turn to a different spare time filler as soon as there comes something which is more shinier, bigger, or has more features, because bbm and mail gets boring if you dont depend on it.
The iphone or ipad is just this. It fills this hole perfect.

However, the Blackberry still works perfect/even better then any other platform for email and texting. If your business and life depends on these things there still is IMO no better choice. Of course everyone somtimes likes a device to fondle, even those who need email and a keyboard. So even there is a fraction who will buy something else, because you more or less can do the same with it regarding mobile communications.

RIM clearly missed it to make something competetive for entertainment. The article is correct regarding this. But the core features are still superior. If RIM can live with a below 5% market share, thats fine with me, because I am on the "I dont need any app besides a mobile office and a little googling and maps" side. I even would not have the time to use it if I had it, and, if I have the time, I really do something else then using my mobile phone.

Last edited by nobody7290 : 10-18-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 12:47 PM   #23 (permalink)
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5% may not be enough. RIM has bet the ranch on BB 10, and if they are premium priced, will hurt their emerging market / 8520s business. It is a fight for survival.

Every device can do e-mail and texting now. That is no longer a differentiating factor.

Customers want applications.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:27 AM   #24 (permalink)
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If you're embarrassed, why not get a different phone?
I actually just decided to a few days ago. Even though I don't like Android, I need a phone that does more and I need it 11 months ago. Just can't wait on these guys anymore. Plus absolutely nobody in my IT Dept or any of the executives have any faith in RIM anymore, so why delay the inevitable? It's going to be Mobile Fusion or nothing soon.

And anyway, have you tried dating with one of these things? I always feel like I'm her father. "Let me find us somewhere to go." Ten minutes later. "Can I use your iPhone?"
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:37 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by daphne View Post
Like what things?
a large touchscreen to use with cool and fun apps especially vpn and remote access to my network, ability to watch movies and shows without going blind, larger keys to type on, internet access that doesn't feel like I'm using a dial up modem in Mongolia, .... basically everything those two bozo CEO's said nobody would ever want or need on a phone.
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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RIM should spend the remaining money in the development of a combination of keyboard+mobile phone, tied to something like the google glass.

I agree, a large screen is fun, but, I dont want to carry it. Currently, If I need a large screen i still prefer a notebook or a 11 MacBookAir. But, Imagine a device, 2/3 the size of a bb9000 which nicely fits into your pocket with a 30" 2K screen which you can share with others who have a compatible device.
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Old 10-19-2012, 06:28 PM   #27 (permalink)
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RIM should spend the remaining money in the development of a combination of keyboard+mobile phone, tied to something like the google glass.
I vote they spend it on hourly companionship and nose candy.
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
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However, the Blackberry still works perfect/even better then any other platform for email and texting. If your business and life depends on these things there still is IMO no better choice. Of course everyone somtimes likes a device to fondle, even those who need email and a keyboard. So even there is a fraction who will buy something else, because you more or less can do the same with it regarding mobile communications.

RIM clearly missed it to make something competetive for entertainment. The article is correct regarding this. But the core features are still superior. If RIM can live with a below 5% market share, thats fine with me, because I am on the "I dont need any app besides a mobile office and a little googling and maps" side. I even would not have the time to use it if I had it, and, if I have the time, I really do something else then using my mobile phone.
"A little googling" is what I often do on my 9800. There are many, many, websites out there that crash the browser. I'm on the most recent OS6 version and I've got no way of testing whether later OS versions don't do this. Should we risk getting Blackberries again (we have about 80), or go with iPhones that I've seen having no difficulties with these sites?

Often when when I click on a link, nothing happens. Halting the page refresh and making it start again sometimes works, but side by side with an iPhone using the same carrier, the iPhone has generally already rendered the page long ago. It's been like this for my last 4 Blackberries. Should I trust them again?

I also want to open pdf files occasionally. Blackberry support for pdfs has always been patchy. Some pdf files work, some don't, some let you zoom in close enough to read, some don't. All the ones I've tested on iPhones just work. Should I trust them on this one again?

I've got annoying bugs in the calendar app, and I've reported them, but I've given up hope they'll ever fix it for OS6.

I fear that if/when we change to iPhones here, that we'll start to discover lots of things that they aren't good at, that the app hungry fan boys around here didn't think to test. But what choice do we really have? Unless OS10 phones are released well before our contract is up, and the world goes crazy for them (I've got little hope of either), they don't have a hope of reversing the groundswell of discontent here.

Throw in the fact that they don't work as well as iPhones for actually making calls (side by side, iPhone drops out less), and I think it's too late for us to justify retaining them. It would be a pity to pull out just before they release a good one, but I've been saying that for years.

I'm not at all impressed by users who say they hate their Blackberry because they don't know how to use it, but with many things they do have a point.

Last edited by pshute : 10-21-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:25 AM   #29 (permalink)
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everyone I know that has used a dev alpha device tells me its awesome

only time will tell what the rest of the world will think

many are biased from using an old model and thinks that is the way it is now. they are wrong and their opinion can not be changed. Just like the media keeps on doing.

OS 7.1 is a lot better than OS 6. even the devices have better CPU and graphics.
I used a 9800 and it was a solid phone, was about the same as my 9700 speed wise and had the same CPU as the Bold 9000.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:14 AM   #30 (permalink)
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If I could get a faster, touchscreen 9700 the size of an S3 or Note, I'd be thrilled. I once set an older user up with a leftover 7230, and I was so jealous of the keyboard.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pshute View Post
"A little googling" is what I often do on my 9800. There are many, many, websites out there that crash the browser. I'm on the most recent OS6 version and I've got no way of testing whether later OS versions don't do this. Should we risk getting Blackberries again (we have about 80), or go with iPhones that I've seen having no difficulties with these sites?

Often when when I click on a link, nothing happens. Halting the page refresh and making it start again sometimes works, but side by side with an iPhone using the same carrier, the iPhone has generally already rendered the page long ago. It's been like this for my last 4 Blackberries. Should I trust them again?

I also want to open pdf files occasionally. Blackberry support for pdfs has always been patchy. Some pdf files work, some don't, some let you zoom in close enough to read, some don't. All the ones I've tested on iPhones just work. Should I trust them on this one again?

I've got annoying bugs in the calendar app, and I've reported them, but I've given up hope they'll ever fix it for OS6.

I fear that if/when we change to iPhones here, that we'll start to discover lots of things that they aren't good at, that the app hungry fan boys around here didn't think to test. But what choice do we really have? Unless OS10 phones are released well before our contract is up, and the world goes crazy for them (I've got little hope of either), they don't have a hope of reversing the groundswell of discontent here.

Throw in the fact that they don't work as well as iPhones for actually making calls (side by side, iPhone drops out less), and I think it's too late for us to justify retaining them. It would be a pity to pull out just before they release a good one, but I've been saying that for years.

I'm not at all impressed by users who say they hate their Blackberry because they don't know how to use it, but with many things they do have a point.
I agree that OS6 has its problems - I tried out about 1 year of OS6 myself, but, finally went back to OS5. I still prefer the OS5 browser over the OS6/7 version. It might not render the page as it was intented, but, it renders the page in a way, that you are able to read the important content.

But all devices working with OS7.1 i have used so far worked ok (battery run time is still not acceptable for me).

PDF support in the OS is ok if your BB is tied to a BES-server. If you are not using a BB connected to a BES server I think your complaints are understandable.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:53 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I agree that OS6 has its problems - I tried out about 1 year of OS6 myself, but, finally went back to OS5. I still prefer the OS5 browser over the OS6/7 version. It might not render the page as it was intented, but, it renders the page in a way, that you are able to read the important content.

But all devices working with OS7.1 i have used so far worked ok (battery run time is still not acceptable for me).
Hmm, I have a 9900 here that kind of works (got wet, goes flat quickly). Maybe I should try it for a while to see the difference in OS7.

I've never used OS5, went straight from 4.6 to 6. Does it have the tabbed browsing? That was a great advance for me, but losing column mode was a backward step. The OS6 equivalent of it just doesn't cut it sometimes.
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PDF support in the OS is ok if your BB is tied to a BES-server. If you are not using a BB connected to a BES server I think your complaints are understandable.
No, I'm on BES. This means there's a size limit for pdf files, not sure if that exists on BIS, I've never used it.

I've been meaning to make a list of pdf files I come across on the web that don't work, so I can quote them in situations like this. I think it has something to do with embedded graphics, because scanned pdfs are generally useless.

I can open some pdfs from an email, but not necessarily from a web page. I can save a pdf to memory, and then it says it can't open that kind of file. It's very confusing and there seem to be lots of combinations of pdf content types and methods of opening them to be considered. Text based pdfs seem to do much better, and I think people who have only come across these don't realise the problems that exist.

I tried a Playbook, and I can't remember the exact details, but at one stage had to save a pdf file to memory to get it to open. Not impressed.

Like I said, I fear the unexpected problems we'll encounter if/when we go iPhone (I suspect data costs and spelling mistakes will be the number one items), but I'd need to be pretty convinced of the advantages of Blackberry to push to keep them. It would be me vs 80 people who are sick and tired of being let down by their Blackberries.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:11 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Hmm, I have a 9900 here that kind of works (got wet, goes flat quickly). Maybe I should try it for a while to see the difference in OS7.

I've been meaning to make a list of pdf files I come across on the web that don't work, so I can quote them in situations like this. I think it has something to do with embedded graphics, because scanned pdfs are generally useless.
If you have some links that I could try out for an example, that would be interesting.
I dont use pdfs much unless I get them in my email on my OS5 9700. This always worked, but as you said, these are most of the time things like invoices - simple, and, textbased.
I once tried out the pdf reader which comes with word to go suite, and, was pretty much disappointed. It tends to display white pages most of the time.
But I have not checked the 3.0 version which now comes with OS7.

Tabbed browsing is not possible with OS5, but as you, I love the colum-mode. It does not make much sense to display a page on the tiny screen of the 9700 or similar Blackberry in page mode, regardlesss of the OS. But, on my 9810 this is ok in landscape mode.

If I really need to open multimedia-rich pages, I use opera. That works quite well, even, with OS5.

Another reaon I will stick to the Blackberry solution is the built in connectivity to my office via the BES MDS - no need for a complicated VPN, everything is just there, regardless where I am.

Last edited by nobody7290 : 10-23-2012 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:30 PM   #34 (permalink)
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If you have some links that I could try out for an example, that would be interesting.
I dont use pdfs much unless I get them in my email on my OS5 9700. This always worked, but as you said, these are most of the time things like invoices - simple, and, textbased.
I once tried out the pdf reader which comes with word to go suite, and, was pretty much disappointed. It tends to display white pages most of the time.
But I have not checked the 3.0 version which now comes with OS7.
I don't think this one is a good example, but I still don't like the time it takes to display it:
http://docs.blackberry.com/en/smartp...001-1.7-US.pdf

Each time I press N to go to the next page, it sits there with a white screen with a question mark in the middle for several minutes before it displays it. Does it do that for you? Sometimes I have to press the menu button and select Retrieve for it to display at all.

I assume it's downloading it, but it's only a 200KB file.

This one's 500KB, and the first page came up reasonable quickly:
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/1...romnigeria.pdf

But the next page just sits there like the previous URL. If I zoom in close enough to read it, it takes ages before it's high enough resolution to be readable. And then the quality isn't that great. The same file viewed on a PC can be zoomed in as far as you like, and it's sharp and clear.

This one's 2MB:
http://www.absa.asn.au/images/pdf/bih%20-%201.pdf
I can't get any of the pages to display.

I think we have about a 5MB limit on pdf file sizes here. After that it only offers to let you download them, which is pointless because you then can't open them at all. I think this limit might be a BES limit, and might have been raised in later BES versions.

I think sometimes I can then email myself the downloaded pdf, and opening it directly from the email gives different results to opening from a web page.

The relevance of all this to the thread topic is that a typical user will see the white screen, wait maybe 30 seconds, and go and buy an iPhone, which will display them all nicely.

I'm doing this on a 9800 running OS6.0.0.723. I'm interested to know how OS7 goes.

Quote:
If I really need to open multimedia-rich pages, I use opera. That works quite well, even, with OS5.
I haven't been using Opera, I need to learn all those shortcut keys. If it works, good, but even if it does, having to use a 3rd party browser won't stem the flow to iPhone, etc.
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Another reaon I will stick to the Blackberry solution is the built in connectivity to my office via the BES MDS - no need for a complicated VPN, everything is just there, regardless where I am.
Good point. We need access to our intranet, so I'm going to have to work something out if we go with iPhones.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:49 PM   #35 (permalink)
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All the examples you gave render for me in a reasonable time, and, have no defects.
Loading ist about 10seconds, <5 seconds for next page, zomm to a readable level <10 seconds.
For opening the 2mb pdf i had to change the maximum allowed size. If i remeber correct, you can put this up to 10mb.

I did this using the mds browser on os5, bb9700, 3G network. If you have an os6/7 device, and, even if you are connected to a BES, most likely your browser will connect to BIS instead of you own BES unless you have not set it up to use the MDS browser only.

I have not checked what happens if I use the BIS browser, and not checked how a newer blackberry will behave, but, somone else will do this and I post the results.

If the BES servers MDS service instance handles the rendering of the pdf, keep in mind, that the time will depend on the resources of the server, and on how busy it is with other tasks. My personal server runs with 4mb of ram, and 2ghz single CPU, only 5 users. Your results might be differ.
When you zoom into a pdf the server renders a new (png ?) Version of the page, and, sends this to the Handheld. This conserves bandwith, but might take longer if your connection is slow, or, the server is busy.

Opera can be set to use the blackberry shortcuts, you dont have to learn new ones.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:00 PM   #36 (permalink)
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All the examples you gave render for me in a reasonable time, and, have no defects.
Loading ist about 10seconds, <5 seconds for next page, zomm to a readable level <10 seconds.
For opening the 2mb pdf i had to change the maximum allowed size. If i remeber correct, you can put this up to 10mb.

I did this using the mds browser on os5, bb9700, 3G network. If you have an os6/7 device, and, even if you are connected to a BES, most likely your browser will connect to BIS instead of you own BES unless you have not set it up to use the MDS browser only.

I have not checked what happens if I use the BIS browser, and not checked how a newer blackberry will behave, but, somone else will do this and I post the results.

If the BES servers MDS service instance handles the rendering of the pdf, keep in mind, that the time will depend on the resources of the server, and on how busy it is with other tasks. My personal server runs with 4mb of ram, and 2ghz single CPU, only 5 users. Your results might be differ.
When you zoom into a pdf the server renders a new (png ?) Version of the page, and, sends this to the Handheld. This conserves bandwith, but might take longer if your connection is slow, or, the server is busy.
I thought we were using BES only, I've never understood that stuff well because it was set up for us and never explained. I'd be annoyed if it was like this all these years because of some misconfiguration issue, but it wouldn't surprise me.

What version is your BES on? Perhaps that's the issue.

And what phone company are you with? I was once told that our phone company makes all Blackberry traffic in the country share a 1GB connection (or something like that).
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:56 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I have a BES Enterprise 5.0.4 (the current version). It runs as a virtual machine, OS is windows server 2003 32 bit.
Wireless network is german telekom, I think, this is ome of the better operators in germany.

I dont know about a shared limit for all blackberries per carrier, but, that does not mean that this does not exist.

I will check the pdfs on a different system, but it will take a little time until i visit one of my customers.

Also the check how it behaves with BIS is interesting, because with BIS you depend on the RIM proxies/data center, rather then on the resources of your own BES.
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:47 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I used a 9800 and it was a solid phone, was about the same as my 9700 speed wise and had the same CPU as the Bold 9000.
I forgot to reply about this comment. I've got a 98000, and it's probably the best Blackberry I've had, but I think it's typical of the RIM design efforts that are driving people to other brands.

Everyone I ever gave one of these to managed to turn wireless off accidentally within minutes just by putting it into their pocket. A random screen swipe gets into the connections menu and turns it off.

You can avoid this by locking it first, but the lock button is really easy to accidentally press as you push the phone into your pocket. Most people get around this by using a holster or an app like PatternLock. Why don't RIM just include similar functionality in an OS update? Or just go back to having to press phone+* to unlock?

I think the 9800 has a faster processor than the 9780 and 9000.

Why is it always two steps forward and one step back? Why are their products always just nearly right?
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:11 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I now got a 7.1 device (a 9810) to check the thing with pdf rendering. Also, I tried my 9700 with BIS.

results:
9700+Bis: pdf will not be viewable, can only be saved. Unless you have the (not very good working) documents to go or another PDF viewer I am unable to view the PDF.

9810+BIS: same as above, but you can download the pdf, and open it with documents to go. The version which comes with the 9810 is able to open and render all documents correct, downloadtime is acceptable (within seconds). Since the rendering of the pdf is done locally the zoom function works with the speed of the Blackberrys CPU. For me it felt "good".

9810+BES: like BIS, still the pdf is downloaded, even If I forced the Device to only allow MDS browser. I thinkt this might relate installed to the documents to go, which grabs itself the handler for opening pdf documents.

So, with a modern device the default behaviour is like on an iPhone or Android: pdf is downloaded, and opened with a reader locally. With a OS5 device, you are able/have to use the BES servers capabilities to render a pdf. I dont have any OS6 device to test currently.

I dont know exactly, what this does mean for you. Since the BIS browser is always unwilling to render a PDF I guess, the problem is with your BES-Server/mobile connection, also If you say it takes some time for zooming, this also looks like the rendering is done on your Server.

If someone else is able to check these PDFs with an OS6 device that would make things clearer.

What I dont know for sure, if the current implementation of BIS is able to render a pdf linked in a web-page. My guess is, it does not.

I checked the documentation from rim:
http://docs.blackberry.com/en/smartp...432-4.3-en.pdf

For me it looks PDF support is only there for email attachments.

I also found an older doc:
Livelink - Redirection
Nothing here regarding pdf in browser.

Funny, look on page 5! It seems the Blackberry infrastructure server in 2004 did run on a Power Macintosh 9600 - nice machine. I owned one if these in the past, see attached screenshot.



Try out your 9900, load it with OS 7.1. I guess, unless your Blackberrys internetconnection is slow your experience should be good when opening these PDF Documents.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BIS.jpg (47.3 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by nobody7290 : 10-27-2012 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:17 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Or do what we did - switch completely and not worry about it!
That's what we just announced last week - moving away from BB to all iPhones by the end of 1Q13.
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