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Old 07-09-2008, 04:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Can anyone confirm if the Bold has assisted GPS? I've read that assisted GPS enables a much faster satellite lock-on.

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Old 07-09-2008, 04:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Assisted GPS is only faster after an initial GPS fix, and any responsible design clears that when GPS goes idle for a long period.

I believe the *10 (like 8110) qualify as assisted GPS, so the Bold should as well.
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Old 07-09-2008, 07:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBW View Post
Assisted GPS is only faster after an initial GPS fix, and any responsible design clears that when GPS goes idle for a long period.

I believe the *10 (like 8110) qualify as assisted GPS, so the Bold should as well.
I could be wrong, but I though Assisted GPS meant that data receives over the network sped up the initial GPS lock.
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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No, sorry.

An initial GPS fix requires a pretty long time because it takes more satellites, doesn't know which side of the planet it's on, etc. You can generally force GPS receivers to do that every time or you can let them take advantage of where they were last time as a head start, which lets a good fix happen with fewer satellites, fewer data points (meaning a shorter time) and fewer calculations.

GPS fixes happen in the satellite receiver, whether internal to the phone or in an external puck, and have nothing whatever to do with data connections; data connections come into play when you need to pull in a map or aerial view, but the application is just coordinating the position readings from the receiver with the (almost always) downloaded map's coordinate representations.

Hey - I think my thumbs just stopped hurting.
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:23 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Assisted GPS is better than normal GPS and mainly helps the TTFF or Time To First Fix. Some pure GPS units that have a SiRF III chip, can take 30 seconds or more because it is dependent on your location, the amount of interference, and horizon information. It also takes a large number of satellite acquisitions because it doesn't know general location on cold start. So, in a large city, a full GPS system using SiRF III or anything like it will take longer than if you were out in the desert for example. Normal GPS also eats more power because of the constant acquisition of satellites ... and indoor use is limited.

aGPS takes information from the cell network to triangulate your general location from multiple towers. Since the phone has the GENERAL location from tower triangulation and other sources, it doesn't have to acquire as many satellites since it has most of the information it needs. It works better in doors because of an easier "fix" due to general location already determined by the cell network. And .... you also get better battery life because constant acquisition is not required.

Other than that ... aGPS and GPS are pretty much similar. Try it. Get a pure GPS unit and see how long it takes in-doors from a COLD START. Then get a known aGPS unit from a mobile phone and see how it works in the same in-door building. The aGPS will get a fix faster with few satellites ... well, if the pure GPS unit even makes it. LOL
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Old 07-10-2008, 12:31 AM   #6 (permalink)
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thanks usefull post and thread
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numetheus View Post
Assisted GPS is better than normal GPS and mainly helps the TTFF or Time To First Fix. Some pure GPS units that have a SiRF III chip, can take 30 seconds or more because it is dependent on your location, the amount of interference, and horizon information. It also takes a large number of satellite acquisitions because it doesn't know general location on cold start. So, in a large city, a full GPS system using SiRF III or anything like it will take longer than if you were out in the desert for example. Normal GPS also eats more power because of the constant acquisition of satellites ... and indoor use is limited.

aGPS takes information from the cell network to triangulate your general location from multiple towers. Since the phone has the GENERAL location from tower triangulation and other sources, it doesn't have to acquire as many satellites since it has most of the information it needs. It works better in doors because of an easier "fix" due to general location already determined by the cell network. And .... you also get better battery life because constant acquisition is not required.

Other than that ... aGPS and GPS are pretty much similar. Try it. Get a pure GPS unit and see how long it takes in-doors from a COLD START. Then get a known aGPS unit from a mobile phone and see how it works in the same in-door building. The aGPS will get a fix faster with few satellites ... well, if the pure GPS unit even makes it. LOL
That's perfect.

So does the bold have aGPS?
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Old 07-10-2008, 11:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Wirelessly posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeets
Quote:
Originally Posted by numetheus View Post
Assisted GPS is better than normal GPS and mainly helps the TTFF or Time To First Fix. Some pure GPS units that have a SiRF III chip, can take 30 seconds or more because it is dependent on your location, the amount of interference, and horizon information. It also takes a large number of satellite acquisitions because it doesn't know general location on cold start. So, in a large city, a full GPS system using SiRF III or anything like it will take longer than if you were out in the desert for example. Normal GPS also eats more power because of the constant acquisition of satellites ... and indoor use is limited.

aGPS takes information from the cell network to triangulate your general location from multiple towers. Since the phone has the GENERAL location from tower triangulation and other sources, it doesn't have to acquire as many satellites since it has most of the information it needs. It works better in doors because of an easier "fix" due to general location already determined by the cell network. And .... you also get better battery life because constant acquisition is not required.

Other than that ... aGPS and GPS are pretty much similar. Try it. Get a pure GPS unit and see how long it takes in-doors from a COLD START. Then get a known aGPS unit from a mobile phone and see how it works in the same in-door building. The aGPS will get a fix faster with few satellites ... well, if the pure GPS unit even makes it. LOL
That's perfect.

So does the bold have aGPS?
Yes. It would be foolish for them NOT to. They had battery drain issues with 3G, so their not going to use the most battery draining GPS type. THAT, and all of their units were aGPS.
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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the fcc filings indicate aGPS.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdryv View Post
the fcc filings indicate aGPS.
True

here is the link

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/f...ive_or_pdf=pdf
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:19 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The Bold has GPS and WiFi and Bluetooth and 3G. It has twice as much handset memory. It has a faster CPU and superb graphics.

It does not have a wireless weather station, a warp field generator, subspace support, a direct brain interface, a bar code scanner, a fingerprint reader, a retinal scanner or full tricorder functions.

At least not yet.
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Old 07-11-2008, 02:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBW View Post
The Bold has GPS and WiFi and Bluetooth and 3G. It has twice as much handset memory. It has a faster CPU and superb graphics.

It does not have a wireless weather station, a warp field generator, subspace support, a direct brain interface, a bar code scanner, a fingerprint reader, a retinal scanner or full tricorder functions.

At least not yet.
but it doesn't mean it won't in the next version Here's hoping for a warp field generator.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBW View Post
The Bold has GPS and WiFi and Bluetooth and 3G. It has twice as much handset memory. It has a faster CPU and superb graphics.

It does not have a wireless weather station, a warp field generator, subspace support, a direct brain interface, a bar code scanner, a fingerprint reader, a retinal scanner or full tricorder functions.

At least not yet.
I've seen merchants that have CC scanners attached to their smartphones for transactions and they can BT the receipt to a little printer for you.
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Old 07-12-2008, 11:14 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spamdumpster View Post
I could be wrong, but I though Assisted GPS meant that data receives over the network sped up the initial GPS lock.
You are correct. Assisted GPS is faster not only on initial lock, but in every aspect. The reason being it can get info from cell towers and WIFI, and I don't need to explain why it's a good thing to be able to read GPS data from the SAT through cell towers instead of waiting on a very, very slow connection from the SAT directly to the phone.......
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Old 07-13-2008, 10:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Fingerprint reading may not be too far off - though I doubt they'll build it in.

I think it might be a year or less when we'll be seeing a little bit of speaker-dependent pass-phrase recognition - not exactly a voice print but pretty damned good as biometric unlocks go.
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The aGPS devices still pick up signals from the satellites? What happens if you are in the middle of the ocean?
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Old 07-16-2008, 01:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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As long as you're on the surface of the ocean (assuming we can limit this discussion to Earth), GPS can see the satellites.

I wouldn't want to promise anything from in a submarine or while diving.

The cell tower signal is a different issue, of course.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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AGPS is a partnership between an always-on GPS receiver and assistance server on the tower and a scaled down GPS receiver on the handheld. The tower GPS will always have the current satellite constellation data ready and can pass it quickly to a nearby, just-powered-on cell phone to greatly speed up acquiring an accurate fix on the handheld. Hence you can power up a cell phone and immediately make a 911 call with location info.

Some AGPS receivers I have had in cell phones cannot function at all without cell tower support, and not all cell sites are yet so equipped. And obviously, such a limited receiver could not work away from cell service. I hope this is not the case for the Bold.

I am optimistic because I heard from someone who got the information from RIM tech support, that the 8800 GPS was capable of operating without cellular service (getting maps is another story).

The best of both worlds would be a mobile device GPS with full autonomous capability but also the capability to operate in assisted mode when the service was available. It would be great to get some real data on how the Bold's GPS operates.

Regards,

Carl
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Old 07-22-2008, 03:38 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlkra View Post
AGPS is a partnership between an always-on GPS receiver and assistance server on the tower and a scaled down GPS receiver on the handheld. The tower GPS will always have the current satellite constellation data ready and can pass it quickly to a nearby, just-powered-on cell phone to greatly speed up acquiring an accurate fix on the handheld. Hence you can power up a cell phone and immediately make a 911 call with location info.

Some AGPS receivers I have had in cell phones cannot function at all without cell tower support, and not all cell sites are yet so equipped. And obviously, such a limited receiver could not work away from cell service. I hope this is not the case for the Bold.

I am optimistic because I heard from someone who got the information from RIM tech support, that the 8800 GPS was capable of operating without cellular service (getting maps is another story).

The best of both worlds would be a mobile device GPS with full autonomous capability but also the capability to operate in assisted mode when the service was available. It would be great to get some real data on how the Bold's GPS operates.

Regards,

Carl
Cell phone towers don't have to be equipped for anything! They don't have to have aGPS support. They use triangulation with multiple towers. As long as there are multiple connections a calculation can be made of general location. It works the same way you can triangulate location if you can connect to multiple WIFI access points. Access points do not have your so called aGPS capability, but can always be used in triangulation if you can get a signal.

Bold will have the same aGPS that is on the 8820 and the 8310.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Important:
"Assisted GPS" is not the same as "Antenna GPS".

Here's an article.
Quote:
Quote:
Assisted GPS > "true" GPS.
edit: The [BlackBerry] Bold has aGPS, as does the iPhone.
This is correct, but let's be clear there's some confusion:
Some people confuse "aGPS" as "Antenna GPS" versus "Assisted GPS".
Also you should call "true" GPS as "native-only GPS" because Assisted GPS is also true GPS. Some people call antenna triangulation as "Antenna GPS". This is incorrect. Sometimes people mix up "Antenna GPS" and "Assisted GPS" (The AGPS acronym) or make them the same thing. That is not true. One is true GPS and the other is not.
Let me clear up confusion with Plain English<tm>.
I'm writing this from scratch, here goes...
Quality Scale
OKAY: Antenna Triangulation or WiFi Location (Incorrectly called Antenna GPS)
GOOD: Native GPS
BETTER: Assisted GPS (except the Verizon type where you pay extra)
BEST: Assisted GPS with fallback to Native GPS and Antenna Triangulation
Lock Speed And Accuracy Scale
ANTENNA LOCATION - fast lock, less accurate, works indoors
WiFi LOCATION - fast lock, less accurate, works indoors
NATIVE GPS - slow lock, more accurate, outdoors only
ASSISTED GPS - medium-fast lock, more accurate, outdoors only
Difference between Native GPS and Assisted GPS
NATIVE GPS Can lock without phone reception, takes one minute to lock because it needs to search for satellites harder, slow lock, works badly indoors.
ASSISTED GPS Downloads information over the network on how to find the GPS satellites more easily, locks much faster if you have a 3G signal, works slightly better indoors in 1-level and 2-level buildings that aren't metal.
What is Satellite Ephemeris?
Native GPS downloads ephemeris directly from the GPS satellite to help it find the location of GPS satellites.
Assisted GPS downloads ephemeris over EDGE or 3G from the network, to help it find the location of GPS satellites.
Ephemeris is mathematical data to help the cellphone calculate its position. As a grossly over-simplified Math 101 or Excel Macro 101 example, you need to calculate
"Location = ExecuteFormula(A, B)"
where A is the location of the satellites and B is the doppler effect it is detecting in the satellite signal. (You've heard of doppler radar on weather forecasts.) It's possible to download A over the Internet instead of getting A directly from the satellites. All kinds of GPS always needs to get B from the satellite signal, however A doesn't need to be obtained from the satellite signal.
Native GPS can do A and B directly from satellite signal
Assisted GPS can only do B from the satellite signal, and download A over cellphone network.
What is Doppler Effect?
Doppler is the frequency/pitch change in signal from object moving towards or away from you. A train or car going towards you always sounds higher-pitched than when it is moving away from you. The phone listens to the varying pitch in the radio signal being transmitted by the moving GPS satellites, and uses that information to help calculate position.

...

Sometimes GPS can lock indoors in single-level and two-level buildings. For this, Assisted GPS works better than Native GPS because the location signal is easier to receive than the ephemeris signal (which can be downloaded off the Internet instead). Assisted GPS needs to download approximately 100 kilobytes of data for one day's worth of GPS lock capability outside cellphone reception areas. Your cellphone will need to download several day's advance of satellite ephemeris in order to gain GPS lock capability for extended time periods outside cellphone reception areas, if the GPS chip inside your cellphone has the inability to download ephemeris
The best cellphone software can do all the above simultaneously, for maximum speed and maximum accuracy. Locks onto antennas and WiFi, followed by GPS once satellite lock is achieved. My BlackBerry can only do two of the above, but I notice its behaviour: When I first launch Google Maps, it gives me a 1000-meter approximation immediately. A few seconds to a minute later, it improves to 3-meter accuracy as it achieves GPS lock outdoors.
Anything called "GPS" should be able to receive the satellite signal directly. Antenna Triangulation does not, while Assisted GPS does.. Native GPS is best if you're outside of reception, my BlackBerry Curve can lock onto a GPS signal even without a Rogers signal. Some Assisted GPS requires both the GPS signal and cellphone reception available simultaneously, so sometimes "GOOD" and "BETTER" needs to be swapped around for some people. Also, once Assisted GPS has locked on, you can safely go outside of reception, it's just the first lock that may not work on cellphones outside reception that only has Assisted GPS if it has the inability to download satellite ephemeris [wikipedia] over the GPS airwaves. More technical information found on Wikipedia and gpspassion.com
Devices with multiple location capabilities, can locate through multiple sources for maximum speed and accuracy. Less inaccuracy, less waiting for lock.
Sources:
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