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Old 06-28-2011, 03:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

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Hello all, I am new to this both this forum and Blackberry in general so bear with me ;)

I was hoping I might get a definitive answer here regarding my BB 9800 Torch. I have searched and searched, had discussions with 02 UK, read forums and received contradictory advice and instructions so far.

Having owned my BB Torch for around one month so far, I seem to rarely be able to connect to WiFi now, when at home using my home broadband.

When I first started using the phone it was connecting to WiFi without issue, and showing the ‘gprs’ (non capitalized) symbol when I switch Data Services ON and WiFi radio ON

Now, every time I connect to WiFi I get the GPRS symbol displayed and would appear to be using my allowance on my data plan, which I don't want to needlessly do while at home.

When contacting 02, they advised that 'Yes, when GPRS is displayed, you are using mobile data and not WiFi.'

The same 'technician' (I use the term loosely) advised that Data Services should be switched OFF when using WiFi. Well, I can connect to WiFi, but not browse the web or send and receive email without Data Services set to ON, that’s always been the way I have found since having the BB Torch.

Checking the WiFi diagnostics, I am in range and receiving the signal (the signal is displayed at -66 to -82dBm)

What makes matters worse, in order I check if I am using any of my data plan and allowance, that very section in my 02 online billing with is giving me an error message (that 02 tech is 'looking into it' ?!) so I can’t check if the usage is being depleted.

Having said that 02 tell me I have so far used 1mb, which suggests the GPRS symbol maybe means I am NOT using the mobile data, contrary to what 02 are telling me.

Anyway, I'm lost now!

Can anyone offer any advice here?
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Here is the skinny:

First, you must have a BlackBerry data plan to use BlackBerry data services, period. Sound like you do. Correct me, though, if I'm wrong.

Second, some carriers require the BlackBerry data plan in order for WiFi use. Again, sounds like you do have a BlackBerry data plan, so I mention this only to be complete. If your carrier required a data plan and you did not have a data plan then you would not be able to use WiFi at all; perhaps you would connect, but you would not have service.

Now, to your questions. If you have mobile network and WiFi both enabled at the same time, the BlackBerry handset is connecting to the mobile network and using WiFi. Data traffic is more than likely coming and going over WiFi only, but the BlackBerry may use the mobile network if it finds it necessary.

The only way to assure that the handset absolutely cannot and therefore does not use the mobile network for data while using WiFi is to turn off mobile network. There is a downside, however. If you do not have UMA, you will turn off voice service when you turn off mobile network.

Lastly, on the BlackBerry, when you turn off data services you turn off data services, WiFi included.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Also, gprs means you have no carrier network data going to/from your BlackBerry. GPRS, means you have carrier network data going to/from your BlackBerry. Same with edge and EDGE.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:11 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Firstly, I just want to thank you both so far, in just this small amount of text so far you have answered far more than service providers and technicians who have advised me thus far. So thank you for that.
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Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
Here is the skinny:

First, you must have a BlackBerry data plan to use BlackBerry data services, period. Sound like you do. Correct me, though, if I'm wrong.
- Yes I have a Blackberry Data Plan
Second, some carriers require the BlackBerry data plan in order for WiFi use. Again, sounds like you do have a BlackBerry data plan, so I mention this only to be complete. If your carrier required a data plan and you did not have a data plan then you would not be able to use WiFi at all; perhaps you would connect, but you would not have service.

Now, to your questions. If you have mobile network and WiFi both enabled at the same time, the BlackBerry handset is connecting to the mobile network and using WiFi. Data traffic is more than likely coming and going over WiFi only, but the BlackBerry may use the mobile network if it finds it necessary.
OK, So Why would the BB need to use the Mobile network? Is the WiFi receiver just not very good in the Torch 9800? Every other WiFi device in my house maintains a good connection at all times, all over the house and outside. To be honest I have never experienced even a small drop out with other devices? Something I need as I use my broadband for business use.

Data
The only way to assure that the handset absolutely cannot and therefore does not use the mobile network for data while using WiFi is to turn off mobile network. There is a downside, however. If you do not have UMA, you will turn off voice service when you turn off mobile network.
I am unaware if I have UMA currently. I understand disconnecting the mobile network will resolve it, maybe by somewhat drastic means, but really, isn't that a bit archaic? Is this really how you should expect to use a modern, updated, brand new device?
Lastly, on the BlackBerry, when you turn off data services you turn off data services, WiFi included. Thank you for confirmation, I thought so, so that totally contradicts that 02 (UK) 'Technician' as I suspected.
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While I consider how I intend to continue use of the Blackberry, if at all. I'm considering returning it based on this issue alone. I understand if it were through my incorrect use or set-up, but if that's really how I am expected to use it, I won't.
Can you just confirm that in the meantime, if GPRS or EDGE is displayed (as opposed to grps or edge), Does that categorically confirm that you are using mobile data and therefore usage of your data plan? From what 'Adperdue' writes it would appear so.


Thanks in advance for any assistance.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:20 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

I'm not certain there is any absolute way to ensure you are *not* using mobile network data unless you turn off mobile network in the options as aiharkness already stated.

See this RIM knowledge base article for descriptions of the indicators.
KB02334-Network status indicators from the GSM/GPRS/EDGE/3G networks
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

The BlackBerry will automatically switch to mobile network if it detects some level of wifi degradation that is too much. If you are on a router with many other users and the bandwidth available to you drops too low, the BlackBerry could switch to the mobile network. And there could be other reasons, such as if you are on a public hotspot and the wifi service begins to degrade or is dropping in and out. It has nothing to do with the quality of the BlackBerry. And as we are saying, the only way to assure yourself that this doesn't happen is to disable mobile network when you want to use wifi data exclusively.

I don't know if this is archaic or not. To me it is a good thing that the device will maintain service by switching to mobile if there is a problem with WiFi connection or throughput. The question as I always perceive it when it is asked is, How to I absolutley, positively, without doubt make sure the BlackBerry is only using wifi. And the answer is to disable mobile network.

GPRS and EDGE (and 3G) in all caps are the indication that you are connected to the RIM/BlackBerry network and therefore should have BlackBerry data services operating. If you did not have a BlackBerry data plan and instead had a regular mobile data plan through your carrier and you were using a third-party browser, you would not see GPRS or EDGE in all caps. See KB02334-Network status indicators from the GSM/GPRS/EDGE/3G networks.

As an aside in case it is not clear, you will have access to the BlackBerry network on wifi with mobile network disabled.

Finally, you probably do not have UMA. First, the carrier must support it, and you must have a handset that is capable. What it would give you, if you had it, is the ability to make and receive phone calls on wifi with the mobile network disabled. So, that's why we say a disadvantage for you of turning off the mobile network when you are using wifi is that you will be disabling the phone, i.e. voice communication.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
The BlackBerry will automatically switch to mobile network if it detects some level of wifi degradation that is too much. If you are on a router with many other users and the bandwidth available to you drops too low, the BlackBerry could switch to the mobile network. And there could be other reasons, such as if you are on a public hotspot and the wifi service begins to degrade or is dropping in and out. It has nothing to do with the quality of the BlackBerry. And as we are saying, the only way to assure yourself that this doesn't happen is to disable mobile network when you want to use wifi data exclusively.

I don't know if this is archaic or not. To me it is a good thing that the device will maintain service by switching to mobile if there is a problem with WiFi connection or throughput. The question as I always perceive it when it is asked is, How to I absolutley, positively, without doubt make sure the BlackBerry is only using wifi. And the answer is to disable mobile network.


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Thank you for the assistance and your input. I do appreciate it. While I totally agree with you that it is a good thing that the mobile network will be used if WiFi drops out in order to maintain access, I do not think it is a good idea that you have no option to disable mobile data services as and when you want. The only work around being, switching off the mobile network and essentially stopping it being a phone! That does seem a little backward and offering less flexibility, not something I personally expected from a 2011 smartphone. Part of my business involves sending large assessments as email attachments, which I had intended often having to do on the Blackberry, my data allowance could be gone in a couple of those attachments and the third could end up costing me considerably and so on.

But still, if that is the case then so be it, but I think I'll be switching. I just can't understand why anyone would be happy depleting their data allowance, then paying for subsequent usage, all the while being within their own WiFi range. That may not be the case with everyone, but it should be optional. Wasn't 'WiFi Preferred', previously available as an option?!

Also, where you state 'If you are on a router with many other users and the bandwidth available to you drops too low' For the record, NO other users, maximum of one other device connected and the Blackberry is using GPRS mobile data when its literally ON TOP of the router. What signal strength should I see on the Blackberry as being too low, in terms of dBm?

Anyway, thanks again.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Find what works best for you. And by all means if you can find something that does what you want to do and it's important to you, make the switch.

For me, I have unlimited data. But if I didn't, I would select a plan with a high enough cap that I wouldn't have to worry about. But I know not everyone can do that.

At any rate, come back and post an update on what you do and how it works out.
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Old 06-29-2011, 03:57 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

It is important to me yes, I have three staff members due to switch on my business contract and can not risk this issue ocurring when anyone is using in a wifi hot spot or at their home. I believed and assessed 500mb allowance to be sufficient for them while on the road, but if ALL data ends up being mobile, my company can't foot that bill. Thanks for the advice, it's a shame 02 didn't market the phone has requiring unlimited data package 'to be on the safeside', as you have set up. I will post what works out for me.
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Also just to refer back to my previous post, Is there no info regarding signal strength or why the Blackberry doesn't receive wifi when next to router?
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

I don't know if there is a good answer for you. It isn't signal strength. I imagine it as an algorithm involving failed tries to connect to the RIM network, packets that have to be resent, etc. But that is wild uneducated guessing on my part. Maybe there is someone here who can and will give the technical explanation for what the BlackBerry is doing, other than the examples I already gave.
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

OK well thanks again, those factors will be pretty much over my head so maybe another response may address those. Something that has come to mind since, After following your earlier advice I have since used wifi with mobile network disabled with no issue, I have had constant internet use over wifi, that pretty much confirms signal, bandwidth and router are not the problem. It would suggest that as soon as mobile network is enabled, the blackberry prioritises the use of mobile data over wifi.
I would like to everything I can try to resolve this before switching.
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Old 06-30-2011, 01:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Can anyone else offer any further advice?
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

There has been alot of information exchanged above. What specifically are you looking for advice on?
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:04 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post
When I first started using the phone it was connecting to WiFi without issue, and showing the ‘gprs’ (non capitalized) symbol when I switch Data Services ON and WiFi radio ON

Now, every time I connect to WiFi I get the GPRS symbol displayed and would appear to be using my allowance on my data plan, which I don't want to needlessly do while at home.

When contacting 02, they advised that 'Yes, when GPRS is displayed, you are using mobile data and not WiFi.'
I'm pretty sure that technician advised you incorrectly. My 9800 on AT&T virtually never displays gprs/GPRS, because that's the lowest speed of 3 possibilities on the AT&T network (gprs/GPRS, edge/EDGE and 3g/3G.) But mine is almost ALWAYS displaying 3G vs. 3g. That indicates not whether you're using WiFi vs. cellular data, but rather whether or not you have a connection to the BlackBerry Internet Service (BIS.) That connection can be over either the WiFi or cellular network. So, if your device displays gprs, it indicates that neither network has been able to provide a connection to BIS. If it indicates GPRS, that shows that it has a valid connection to BIS, but doesn't tell you which network that connection is over. To tell which network its over, mine has a little "BlackBerry logo" (essentially 4 offset dots is what it looks like at this resolution) and that logo will be either on the top line, next to your GPRS logo, or on the line below, next to the WiFi signal strength icon.

But the thing to remember is, GPRS does NOT indicate that its using cellular data instead of WiFi data. Your tech was simply wrong about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post
It would suggest that as soon as mobile network is enabled, the blackberry prioritises the use of mobile data over wifi.
No, when WiFi is available and connected, the BlackBerry will prioritize data usage over that network instead of using mobile data. That's definitely the way mine works on AT&T, and since the BlackBerry operating systems are not carrier-specific, I believe that's true no matter what carrier you're on.

However, there is no way to FORCE the device to use ONLY WiFi for data - short of turning off the mobile network - which admittedly is not a good solution. Given that, I'd say to closely watch your usage for a few days via your account on the carrier website, except you said that part of their website is currently broken.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Dallas, your post really is music to my tired and weary ears (& eyes)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasFlier View Post
I'm pretty sure that technician advised you incorrectly.
I was almost certain he was too, after all I have read and been told elsewhere, thanks for the confirmation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasFlier View Post
That indicates not whether you're using WiFi vs. cellular data, but rather whether or not you have a connection to the BlackBerry Internet Service (BIS.) That connection can be over either the WiFi or cellular network. So, if your device displays gprs, it indicates that neither network has been able to provide a connection to BIS. If it indicates GPRS, that shows that it has a valid connection to BIS, but doesn't tell you which network that connection is over. .
This is the kicker for me and thanks very much for pointing it out, that makes perfect sense now. My data usage to date (I have to call 02 daily to confirm as they still haven’t resolved their site issue) doesn’t reflect the high use you would expect if every time I was seeing EDGE or GPRS was using mobile data.
Now that you have explained the capitalization relates to the BIS, that all adds up now and it’s just what I wanted to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasFlier View Post
To tell which network its over, mine has a little "BlackBerry logo" (essentially 4 offset dots is what it looks like at this resolution) and that logo will be either on the top line, next to your GPRS logo, or on the line below, next to the WiFi signal strength icon.
After a few tests I can confirm that the Blackberry logo is now displayed within the WiFi line and not mobile data. The BIS is showing in the service status as connected over WiFi and EDGE I sshowing (this was the part that had me concerned prior to your post)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasFlier View Post

But the thing to remember is, GPRS does NOT indicate that its using cellular data instead of WiFi data. Your tech was simply wrong about that.

This quote alone I swear will resolve so many peoples questions that get raised regarding mobile data usage. As I mentioned previously in this post, this is the pertinent part for me and anyone finding this post in the future, just about everywhere, everyone is stating that the capitalization of EDGE, 3G, GPRS definitely confirms you are using mobile data, which as you state, is NOT the case. That issue alone is really what got me fussing and panicking over this in the first place and the so called 02 ‘Technician’ (I have our chat transcript for complaint) might aswell have been my grandma, giving answers that were wrong unfounded for the sake of giving an answer. With the thought of this issue getting quadrupled with the other three BB Torches due to be added on my business contract had me sleepless!
Once again thanks to all for the assistance provided. Go Dallas!
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

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There has been alot of information exchanged above. What specifically are you looking for advice on?
Exactly what Dallasflier picked up on and posted.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:52 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Been looking for an answer to this myself. Although I'm not using a Torch I am seeing exactly the same issue on my 9300 with OS6.

When at home my BB is connected to my WiFi router - it shows up next to the carrier name at the top of screen.

When using the browser with both WiFi and Mobile Network on it is super sluggish and showing GPRS. Switch Mobile Network off and it uses just the WiFi and flies (well, as much a BB can fly at web browsing).

This isn't a WiFi signal issue as I can use both laptop and tablet at same time. I'm sure it did work at one time, showing WiFi logo and gprs as the status.

Did you get to the bottom of this?

Cheers
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:47 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

Oh, and checking Service Status shows BIS and BES connected over WiFi when all this is occouring
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:30 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Contradictory Advice regarding WiFi Issues

On the Torch when in the browser it will say how you are connected at the top of the page, a signal strength logo if you are on WIFI, 3G if on 3G, EDGE if on edge etc..
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