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Old 03-19-2008, 02:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Delivery receipts can be used to "track" BB status

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Having fully discussed this issue in the 8300 Series Forum without resolution, I thought it was worth posting in this forum in hopes of finding a workaround.

Please note the following refers to DELIVERY receipts NOT Read receipts, which a BB user can disable.

If an e-mail sender has enabled the delivery receipt option in MS Outlook, BIS sends a delivery confirmation back to the sender but only once the message is physically delivered to the BB device. Delivery receipts are not sent when the device is powered down or out of a coverage area. This is done in the background and transparent to the BB user.

OK, but who cares?

Because I work in an area without BB coverage, my 8300 transparently sends delivery receipts every time I leave the office. This alerts the sender that I have left the office and the device is powered up. The same is true for air travel, vacations, etc. This is information I would prefer not to share but a user from the 8300 Forum confirmed: “After more than an hour on the phone with RIM support, they told me this is a "feature" that can't be turned off.”

The following options exist on my 8300:
Options/Email Settings/
Confirm Delivery: No
Confirm Read: No
Send Read Receipts: No

There is not an option for Send Delivery Receipts, hence the response from RIM support.

If these requests were separate messages they could be intercepted by a filter, but I believe the delivery request is embedded in the actual message from the sender.

Any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What exactly are you trying to accompish (or not) ?
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I understand the OP is wanting control over return of delivery receipt to the sender.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I use these all the time and actually find them quite useful but i can see how they can be annoying to the reciever by having his movements tracked. I believe that they are in fact embedded in the email and cannot be seperated/filtered or disabled by the reciever (I guess that's the whole point of them)
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If there is not a workaround for suppressing delivery receipts, what is the procedure for submitting a request to RIM for a menu addition to the OS? By adding a “Send Delivery Receipts” option in Options/Email Settings/, it would give the user the option as is does for read receipts.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Wirelessly posted (8700g: BlackBerry8700/4.2.1 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

This isn't just an issue with email. A user (the recipient) concerned about this can have the same 'problem' with PIN messages. For that matter, the boss or wife or whatever could just call the user's office phone to learn whether the user is in the office or not.

The way I see it, the delivery confirmation is for the benefit of the sender, with the interests of the sender the priority. If the recipient could disable the delivery confirmation, wouldn't the feature then become meaningless?

Just my opinion.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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i agree with harkness there. this is sender initiated, and if you were able to disable it, would destroy the purpose of the device. if you dont want people to know when you are leaving the office, just turn off data before you leave then turn it on after you have left the coverage area. then they wouldnt know when you left. i am curious though, if you just forwarded headers to the device, if the delivery confirmation would go on. you could create a filter, and just enable it right before you leave work (if it worked)

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Old 03-20-2008, 01:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Additionally, SMS and MMS messages also provide delivery confirmation...

Whatever reason OP has in avoiding being "tracked" is his own business... and if he doesn't want "big brother" watching, the simple thing to do is turn those devices off. . .because the reality is, if somebody wants to know, they can find out...
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sith_Apprentice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
The way I see it, the delivery confirmation is for the benefit of the sender, with the interests of the sender the priority. If the recipient could disable the delivery confirmation, wouldn't the feature then become meaningless?
i agree with harkness there. this is sender initiated, and if you were able to disable it, would destroy the purpose of the device.
Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you two on this. Its not a personal issue for me, but philosophically, your argument would also apply for read receipts, since those are also "sender initiated." Its MY phone and MY email accounts, and BY DEFINITION my interests are the priority, I don't care WHO's going to benefit.

You might as well say we shouldn't be able to block telemarketing calls, because of course those are for the benefit of the caller, and therefore the interests of the caller should be the priority by your exact same argument.

I agree with the OP, you should be able to disable them if desired. The only philosophical exception I'd make is if its a company-supplied Berry connected to a company BES and the company wishes to see the confirmations. But to make the claim that an outside third party's interests are the priority seems rather absurd. Just my humble opinion.
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasFlier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sith_Apprentice View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
The way I see it, the delivery confirmation is for the benefit of the sender, with the interests of the sender the priority. If the recipient could disable the delivery confirmation, wouldn't the feature then become meaningless?
i agree with harkness there. this is sender initiated, and if you were able to disable it, would destroy the purpose of the device.
Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you two on this. Its not a personal issue for me, but philosophically, your argument would also apply for read receipts, since those are also "sender initiated." Its MY phone and MY email accounts, and BY DEFINITION my interests are the priority, I don't care WHO's going to benefit.

You might as well say we shouldn't be able to block telemarketing calls, because of course those are for the benefit of the caller, and therefore the interests of the caller should be the priority by your exact same argument.

I agree with the OP, you should be able to disable them if desired. The only philosophical exception I'd make is if its a company-supplied Berry connected to a company BES and the company wishes to see the confirmations. But to make the claim that an outside third party's interests are the priority seems rather absurd. Just my humble opinion.
I thought about the similarity of the delivery and the read reciept, and I agree it doesn't make sense to me either that the recipient can disable one and not the other. Perhaps the reason for the difference is that opened doesn't necessarily mean read.

But on the rest of what I wrote, I was just stating what I see as an obvious fact, in response to posts #4 and #5, with the PIN message delivery confirmation as the clear illustration of that fact. There are two blackberry users in this case, and the delivery confirmation is provided for the benefit of one of them (the sender). I don't have much interest either way, other than to point out the logic that if the recipient could disable it, then the confirmation/receipt feature is of little meaning to the sender.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:57 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
I thought about the similarity of the delivery and the read reciept, and I agree it doesn't make sense to me either that the recipient can disable one and not the other. Perhaps the reason for the difference is that opened doesn't necessarily mean read.

But on the rest of what I wrote, I was just stating what I see as an obvious fact, in response to posts #4 and #5, with the PIN message delivery confirmation as the clear illustration of that fact. There are two blackberry users in this case, and the delivery confirmation is provided for the benefit of one of them (the sender). I don't have much interest either way, other than to point out the logic that if the recipient could disable it, then the confirmation/receipt feature is of little meaning to the sender.
If all you could determine was that delivery had been accomplished, it wouldn't be a big deal to me at all. But if "tracking the user" can happen, as it appears possible according to the OP, then I'm a strong advocate of NOT being in favor of invasion of privacy that the user can't control. Like you, just my thoughts though.
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Old 03-20-2008, 06:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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ok , can someone explain how a simple delivery receipt can "track" anything? All it shows is the device was able to receive. I never turn off the BB when in the office so if I left and received an email big deal. I can be anywhere in the world. Responding also shows nothing related to location. I must be missing something here. Or his girlfriend wants to know when he left the office and he tells her he's working all night.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Yes, I was thinking same as tsac. This isn't tracking, per se. What makes this an issue for the OP, as I understand it, is someone can tell whether he/she is in the office by whether or not the blackberry has service, by way of email delivery confirmation, because the blackberry typically does not get a signal in the office building. I don't see the invasion of privacy issue.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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the delivery confirmation doesnt track the device, what if you just opened outlook (for instance) and got the email from the server and didnt even HAVE a blackberry? well the sender can then tell when the message was delivered to you from the server. this seems just as easy to track usage on a PC as it is on the device. the other party cant tell where you are, and doesnt know that your building doesnt get service. they merely receive the fact that you got the message.
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Old 03-20-2008, 07:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sith_Apprentice View Post
the delivery confirmation doesnt track the device, what if you just opened outlook (for instance) and got the email from the server and didnt even HAVE a blackberry? well the sender can then tell when the message was delivered to you from the server. this seems just as easy to track usage on a PC as it is on the device. the other party cant tell where you are, and doesnt know that your building doesnt get service. they merely receive the fact that you got the message.
In this case I think the other party (Most likely GF) does know that he doesn't get service at the office and these messages tell them that he has left the office..... We are not talking about traditional uses for delivery and read receipts here...
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sith_Apprentice View Post
the delivery confirmation doesnt track the device, what if you just opened outlook (for instance) and got the email from the server and didnt even HAVE a blackberry? well the sender can then tell when the message was delivered to you from the server. this seems just as easy to track usage on a PC as it is on the device. the other party cant tell where you are, and doesnt know that your building doesnt get service. they merely receive the fact that you got the message.
Actually, the BB delivery receipts are uniquely formatted and it's easy to distinguish between those sent from a PC. In fact, sending out a mass mailing with the delivery receipt option enabled reveals who on the list actively uses a BB.

The other difference for a PC user is the recipient can easily disable the sending of receipts, which at this point is not an option for a BB user.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:15 AM   #17 (permalink)
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If you do not want people (gf or not) to be able to tell you have left the office by when you got the message, why not either power off the device before leaving, or turning off the data network? Yea you wont get your e-mails until you have turned it back on, but nobody knows where you are. Sometimes people overlook the fact that they really can turn their cell phones and devices off if they wont some privacy.
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Old 03-21-2008, 12:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsac View Post
ok , can someone explain how a simple delivery receipt can "track" anything? All it shows is the device was able to receive. I never turn off the BB when in the office so if I left and received an email big deal. I can be anywhere in the world. Responding also shows nothing related to location. I must be missing something here. Or his girlfriend wants to know when he left the office and he tells her he's working all night.
Just a few examples:

1. Send someone a message while they're on a flight, find out when they land.
2. Send someone a message who shuts off the device at night, find out when they wake up.
3. Send someone a message on vacation to see if/when they power up the device.
4. Send someone a message who works in a location without coverage, find out when they leave the office.

Some of this "tracking" can be avoided by routine changes, but because the receipts are sent transparently many BB users are not aware this can occur.

Seems pretty silly until your boss says "I thought you said you were in the office all day..."
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Old 03-21-2008, 07:37 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasFlier View Post
Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with you two on this. Its not a personal issue for me, but philosophically, your argument would also apply for read receipts, since those are also "sender initiated." Its MY phone and MY email accounts, and BY DEFINITION my interests are the priority, I don't care WHO's going to benefit.

You might as well say we shouldn't be able to block telemarketing calls, because of course those are for the benefit of the caller, and therefore the interests of the caller should be the priority by your exact same argument.

I agree with the OP, you should be able to disable them if desired. The only philosophical exception I'd make is if its a company-supplied Berry connected to a company BES and the company wishes to see the confirmations. But to make the claim that an outside third party's interests are the priority seems rather absurd. Just my humble opinion.

i agree with you i just don't have the same level of feeling as in your strength of your argument.

It is the owners role to allow tracking of their movements and one which would require me to be paid for to alow it for me.

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Old 03-21-2008, 07:46 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkbent View Post
Just a few examples:

1. Send someone a message while they're on a flight, find out when they land.
2. Send someone a message who shuts off the device at night, find out when they wake up.
3. Send someone a message on vacation to see if/when they power up the device.
4. Send someone a message who works in a location without coverage, find out when they leave the office.

Some of this "tracking" can be avoided by routine changes, but because the receipts are sent transparently many BB users are not aware this can occur.

Seems pretty silly until your boss says "I thought you said you were in the office all day..."

it can only determine device recieving the email... that is all. you are assuming the sender knows your device is on, wireless is on, wireless doesnt work where you are, that you are flying, that you are on vacation, etc. if you notify them of these things ,you enable the tracking. personally, noone that sends me an email knows where my phone works and doesnt work, or when i turn it on and off, all they get is a delivery receipt.
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