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Old 06-16-2006, 10:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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It's absolutely brilliant.

So why do some of you not like it?

Are you afraid of change?

I bet your grandfather also went into conniptions when the local blacksmith closed shop.

But really I think it's great. I'll post some thoughts here tomorrow as to why.
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Old 06-16-2006, 10:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc
It's absolutely brilliant.

So why do some of you not like it?

Are you afraid of change?

I bet your grandfather also went into conniptions when the local blacksmith closed shop.

But really I think it's great. I'll post some thoughts here tomorrow as to why.

I really like the fact that I don't have a webmail panel anymore. I know some people did not want to see it go, but I really hated it being there.
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Old 06-16-2006, 11:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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No webmail
No folders
Lame synch - one way only
Can't change reply to address without a utility
Some email services aren't really pushed

That's five reasons to start, let alone the carriers didn't really do a good job of explaining what they were changing.
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Old 06-17-2006, 12:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
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i sure wish it supported courier and cyrus imap implementations. They're killin me with this one.
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Old 06-17-2006, 02:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I've seen 2.0 in action as I have friends who are using it... It's not for me so I won't upgrade. Truth be told I don't want to unless it becomes mandatory.
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Old 06-17-2006, 07:05 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Perhaps the main reason I won't transition is that it makes using email as a tool to manage communications imposible. It becomes a mere email reader. You can either have an email in an lengthly list in your inbox, or you can delete it when think you have finished with it and not be able to refer to it at a later date.
Just doesn't fit my way of managing my communications.

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Old 06-17-2006, 07:07 AM   #7 (permalink)
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>No webmail

Yahoo and GMail can be your new webmail.

I killed my blackberry email address as soon as I upgraded. I do not miss SPAM sent directly to webmail account.

>No folders

True. No webmail- no folders.

>Lame synch - one way only

Only sync with webmail before BIS 2.0. Better sync with Yahoo now, and with other mail services.

>Can't change reply to address without a utility

Same as before.
Improvement in BIS 2.0: in 99.9% of cases you don't have to as ordinary people tend to like reply from same email address they received email to.

>Some email services aren't really pushed

Some services are now. Take Yahoo (except Cingular blackberries who knows why).

Quote:
That's five reasons to start, let alone the carriers didn't really do a good job of explaining what they were changing.
I counted just one: they removed webmail with its folders and you don't like it.

For us simple folks who have accounts on Yahoo, GMail and so on having webmail was like having a fifth wheel. No, I am not using blackberry to check my lame RIM's webmail mailbox with 25MB quota, I am using it to get emails in real time from my Yahoo account where I have gigabytes of space, advanced spam filters, and other features professional mail hoster can offer.
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Old 06-17-2006, 08:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I already use Yahoo, primarily to read HTML mail. My firm has 14,000 BB users. For me I need folders to manage email and file away important info. Like rcbjr says I don't need a reader, I need a manager. I am on BES and I am spoiled I guess. Full sync both ways and full folder support.

Your comment about folders is missing the point. There were folders on the BB as well as on webmail. Let's say I wanted to see the emails regarding my tips site. My shortcut Alt-B would filter to message list to those emails only.

Synch with Yahoo is better but lame. Who wants to manage from two places. Hey I'm a time saver and that's why I like shortcuts and BES.

There are alot of Cingular users including me.

So I count lots reasons not to upgrade; I also recongnize that for those that want an email reader and like the limited synch/push, they should go for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
>No webmail

Yahoo and GMail can be your new webmail.



I killed my blackberry email address as soon as I upgraded. I do not miss SPAM sent directly to webmail account.

>No folders

True. No webmail- no folders.

>Lame synch - one way only

Only sync with webmail before BIS 2.0. Better sync with Yahoo now, and with other mail services.

>Can't change reply to address without a utility

Same as before.
Improvement in BIS 2.0: in 99.9% of cases you don't have to as ordinary people tend to like reply from same email address they received email to.

>Some email services aren't really pushed

Some services are now. Take Yahoo (except Cingular blackberries who knows why).



I counted just one: they removed webmail with its folders and you don't like it.

For us simple folks who have accounts on Yahoo, GMail and so on having webmail was like having a fifth wheel. No, I am not using blackberry to check my lame RIM's webmail mailbox with 25MB quota, I am using it to get emails in real time from my Yahoo account where I have gigabytes of space, advanced spam filters, and other features professional mail hoster can offer.
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinsonddog
Synch with Yahoo is better but lame. Who wants to manage from two places.
You really don't get it. I have instant push from Yahoo on my blackberry. That's what counts for me. At the end of the day I am in my home office, anyway. I do 'Delete Prior' on blackberry and sort emails to folders and such using desktop computer. I do not manage from two places. I do not have to.

What I have and what I need is instant email and instant reply, just like BES.
I like that my friend sending me bunch of emails with photos of his vacations can't clog my mailbox until end of the day because he runs me out of quota.
What I really like is when I reply to email I don't have to worry what from: email address my email will be signed with.
I killed my blackberry email address (it was getting SPAM) now all I can receive is filtered by Yahoo. I only manage SPAM control from one place: Yahoo filters.


Cingular blackberries do not have Yahoo push, but I am not on Cingular.

Quote:
There are alot of Cingular users including me.
Tell it to Cingular. They should listen.


Quote:
So I count lots reasons not to upgrade; I also recongnize that for those that want an email reader and like the limited synch/push, they should go for it.
You ignore many good reasons to upgrade.

As time goes, more and more people will be running BIS 2.0 just because it is standard service for blackberry today. They would not know what they are missing and more importantly- would not care.

My only wish for RIM is to expand email push to more than Yahoo.

Last edited by Berry One : 06-17-2006 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 06-17-2006, 11:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Ah controversy! This is what I was looking for.

Actually it's a busy day, what with the US Open and everything. Plus I'm still testing the system ( I just integrated my home commercial account by POP3 - something that only now makes sense on BIS 2.0).

But I will bump this thread and post my spirited defence of this system in my post #1 above soon. It is truly great, at least for a user like me.

Let me throw out a basic concept: If you use the Blackberry as a portable archive system, BIS 2.0 may indeed be a step down. I don't. To me Blackberry's are for real-time communication.

But if you want real-time communication on multiple accounts with each having it's own From address, each archiving in the proper place either by Yahoo integration, or by a BCC that is unique for that address (with filters that are also unique to prevent BCC/Autoforward-POP3 bounceback), then this system is remarkable.

More details later.

Last edited by cooperpwc : 06-17-2006 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 06-17-2006, 12:51 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc
Let me throw out a basic concept: If you use the Blackberry as a portable archive system, BIS 2.0 may indeed be a step down. I don't. To me Blackberry's are for real-time communication.
Exactly! I just don't get all the furor over the loss of webmail and folders. I archive and put important email into folders on my primary PC, NOT on my BlackBerry! If I *really* started trying to archive and save on the BlackBerry, I'd quickly run it out of memory space. And people lament the demise of the archaic, generic webmail interface of BIS 1.8? Why on earth would you ever use that, unless its to thwart your IT department's blocks on other webmail from work computers, as one user admitted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc
But if you want real-time communication on multiple accounts with each having it's own From address, each archiving in the proper place either by Yahoo integration, or by a BCC that is unique for that address (with filters that are also unique to prevent BCC/Autoforward-POP3 bounceback), then this system is remarkable.
Yep, I totally agree. And dont forget that now if you're sent a few emails with LARGE attachments on the same day, which happens to me in my job sometimes, you don't end up with your BIS server mailbox full, and bounce notices being sent to those trying to mail you, without notifying you that those bounce notices are being sent!
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Old 06-17-2006, 03:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'll admit, I miss my folders, but it wasn't a deal killer for me. As far as Yahoo push, I upgraded to the Yahoo plus account for only $19.99 with my choice of POP or real-time forwarding. Problem solved for me.
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Old 06-17-2006, 03:35 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You are a perfect candidate for BIS 2.0, others may not be. Actually many that are not on BES are perfect candidates. Many that are on BES, might like the folders and think the sync is lame. That might be me. Yes in fact I think it is. My point, which I think I get, wait let me ask myself, yes I do get it, is that it's not for everybody and this isn't the end of Lion King with retaking of Pride Rock.

For many it's an improvement for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
You really don't get it. I have instant push from Yahoo on my blackberry. That's what counts for me. At the end of the day I am in my home office, anyway. I do 'Delete Prior' on blackberry and sort emails to folders and such using desktop computer. I do not manage from two places. I do not have to.

What I have and what I need is instant email and instant reply, just like BES.
I like that my friend sending me bunch of emails with photos of his vacations can't clog my mailbox until end of the day because he runs me out of quota.
What I really like is when I reply to email I don't have to worry what from: email address my email will be signed with.
I killed my blackberry email address (it was getting SPAM) now all I can receive is filtered by Yahoo. I only manage SPAM control from one place: Yahoo filters.


Cingular blackberries do not have Yahoo push, but I am not on Cingular.



Tell it to Cingular. They should listen.




You ignore many good reasons to upgrade.

As time goes, more and more people will be running BIS 2.0 just because it is standard service for blackberry today. They would not know what they are missing and more importantly- would not care.

My only wish for RIM is to expand email push to more than Yahoo.
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Old 06-17-2006, 07:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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This is a very interesting thread and it just goes to show that there are more than two sides to any situation. BIS 2.0 is great for those people who just want instant or near instant communication with everyone that has any of there email addresses, or a good percent of them. I am not one of those. I only want email from those I know may need a rapid response from me, family, a few friends and a couple of organizations. Anyone else can wait or call me.

One thing I do need is a clean inbox where I can see which emails still need something in response to or some action that I still have left to accomplish. I have never run over the 25 Meg Limit, and still have emails from before Christmas that, while filed in folders, I have recently had to refer to in making a response to a new email. And one case, I would have had to leave work at a very inopportune time to in order to get my personal account in time to take advantage of the email. And, knock on wood; I have never had SPAM sent to my BB email address.

Now for my thinking on the reason RIM pushed/is pushing this on the providers. They are trying to push further into the consumer market, making an excellently planned marketing effort to sell to those that donxxx8217;t have need for BES. As such I feel that that they had three options to prevent overload on there Server Storage Space, reduce the limit on the BIS Storage, invest a lot of capital to increase the size of the server storage array, or push the storage costs off the other email providers. Exercising the first option would be unacceptable as it would eat into the sales to the new market. The second would require a large or continuous investment in order to meet the expected sales. The third option is the best business decision for RIM, once they figured out how to sell it to the consumers as an upgrade rather that a loss of capability. So far Cingular is the only provider that has resisted the total change over and I imagine they really had to push to keep BIS 1.8 as an option. BES would be an option for me, if I really needed more space, but I really donxxx8217;t, so why have the added expense, especially now.

For all those who like BIS 2.0, I am very glad you are happy. I understand your position, please understand mine. It works for you, but not for me. If enough consumers transition, RIM might just increase my allocated space, not that I need it but, what the heck.


Again, just my $0.02
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Old 06-17-2006, 08:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc
Ah controversy! This is what I was looking for.

Actually it's a busy day, what with the US Open and everything. Plus I'm still testing the system ( I just integrated my home commercial account by POP3 - something that only now makes sense on BIS 2.0).

But I will bump this thread and post my spirited defence of this system in my post #1 above soon. It is truly great, at least for a user like me.

Let me throw out a basic concept: If you use the Blackberry as a portable archive system, BIS 2.0 may indeed be a step down. I don't. To me Blackberry's are for real-time communication.

But if you want real-time communication on multiple accounts with each having it's own From address, each archiving in the proper place either by Yahoo integration, or by a BCC that is unique for that address (with filters that are also unique to prevent BCC/Autoforward-POP3 bounceback), then this system is remarkable.

More details later.

Wait a minute.......hold on.....people are archiving email ON their Berry???? WHAT???.......WHY???? So you end up with hundreds, maybe thousands of emails sorted into little bb sized folders on your berry? WOW!!
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Old 06-18-2006, 12:02 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcbjr
As such I feel that that they had three options to prevent overload on there Server Storage Space, reduce the limit on the BIS Storage, invest a lot of capital to increase the size of the server storage array, or push the storage costs off the other email providers....The third option is the best business decision for RIM, once they figured out how to sell it to the consumers as an upgrade rather that a loss of capability...If enough consumers transition, RIM might just increase my allocated space, not that I need it but, what the heck.
Ah, everyone is a cynic. But you have not correctly described how BIS 2.0 works. Blackberry.net, pushed Yahoo and POP3 emails are still stored on RIM servers. So are attachments. (I just tested this, sending an email to my Yahoo account, deleting it there but still successfully opening it's Word attachment on my Blackberry.) I am informed that my mailbox has increased in size from 25 MB to a maximum at any time of 500 MB. However attachments are only stored for 30 days. This does not equal a space-saving option for RIM. Rather it reflects a world where Webmail has become hugely popular, particularly Yahoo and GMail. People archive on those webmail accounts but also want better integration of their webmail with their Blackberry. (And all of this applies to non-BES Outlook accounts.) To accomplish this, ideally RIM cuts a deal like they have with Yahoo - and I suspect that we will see more. But RIM otherwise wants to provide a user-friendly set of tools that gives all accounts the same features enjoyed on the Blackberry.net accounts with a clean common interface. BIS webmail had become vestidual: an underpowered and inelegant system that detracted from the integration.
So I disagree with your cynicism. BIS 2.0 is intended as a significant upgrade in capabilities for the general non-BES as well as target growth markets. I don't doubt however that for a minority of non-BES users like you (perhaps a significant minority: I can't assess that), the loss of folders is a downgrade in function.

Last edited by cooperpwc : 06-18-2006 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 06-18-2006, 07:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooperpwc
Ah, everyone is a cynic. But you have not correctly described how BIS 2.0 works. Blackberry.net, pushed Yahoo and POP3 emails are still stored on RIM servers. So are attachments. (I just tested this, sending an email to my Yahoo account, deleting it there but still successfully opening it's Word attachment on my Blackberry.)
Actually, I do think I have described it correctly. If by pushed Yahoo and Pop3, you mean forwarded to Blackberry.net, this correct they are stored on the RIM servers. I don't think the polled, including the integrated Yahoo accounts, are stored on the RIM Servers at all, but they may be temporarily.

Quote:
I am informed that my mailbox has increased in size from 25 MB to a maximum at any time of 500 MB. However attachments are only stored for 30 days. This does not equal a space-saving option for RIM.
Yes the maximum is increased to 499 MB, according to the announcement, and attachments are only stored for 30 days. But the announcement also says that emails are only stored on the RIM servers for 30 days, after that, if they are deleted from the handheld they are lost. I am sure that RIM has done a lot of study about how much space is needed on there servers, 500MB/account for 30 days verses 25MB forever.

Quote:
Rather it reflects a world where Webmail has become hugely popular, particularly Yahoo and GMail. People archive on those webmail accounts but also want better integration of their webmail with their Blackberry. (And all of this applies to non-BES Outlook accounts.)
Yes the world has come to like Webmail, especially Yahoo and Gmail. Everyone loves Gigabytes free email storage. I just donít trust anyone that has the stated aim of ďIndexing everything on the NetĒ or itís major competitor, to store certain personal information. Even after studying their Policies, I canít determine just how much scanning for aggregated statistics they do on email.

Quote:
To accomplish this, ideally RIM cuts a deal like they have with Yahoo - and I suspect that we will see more. But RIM otherwise wants to provide a user-friendly set of tools that gives all accounts the same features enjoyed on the Blackberry.net accounts with a clean common interface. BIS webmail had become vestidual: an underpowered and inelegant system that detracted from the integration.
The BIS webmail was not meant to be a primary viewer for email. Thatís what the Blackberry was for. It was only meant to be a secondary point of access in case of malfunction or network problems. As such, it was simple and straight forward. Yes a little cluncky, but not really to0 bad. It is not that much different for my other ISPs web access points for email.

Quote:
So I disagree with your cynicism. BIS 2.0 is intended as a significant upgrade in capabilities for the general non-BES as well as target growth markets. I don't doubt however that for a minority of non-BES users like you (perhaps a significant minority: I can't assess that), the loss of folders is a downgrade in function.
Fine, itís your option to disagree, and as I said before, if it fits your needs then Iím happy for you. One last thing, RIM doesnít do anything that will cut profits just to make users happy. However they will, listen to users desires, in order to increase those profits, if they think it will increase sales without large chunks capital expenditure, they will do it.

Rcbjr.
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfanatic
Wait a minute.......hold on.....people are archiving email ON their Berry???? WHAT???.......WHY???? So you end up with hundreds, maybe thousands of emails sorted into little bb sized folders on your berry? WOW!!
For me its not a permanent archive, but there is plenty of space (even with 10 themes or so) so that for as long as I might practically need them, I can have them. When a project is done, they can go.
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:19 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I am not sure why we are having this debate when BIS 3.0 is around the corner. It's just a big corner.
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Old 06-18-2006, 09:16 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm confused as to the huge controversy here. If people need to store email on their device for more than 30 days, so be it. How can so many people **** their head and confusion and then tell them they "don't get it"? I work on projects that take months in some cases. I need to keep messages and attachments for that duration. Sure I can archive on my computer. That's fine. But when I'm two hundred miles into the field and my computer isn't right there, well, that's why I have a Blackberry. I can pull it out, and there is the contract, the details, the lists of attendies, etc. I need folders, you don't... fine. But don't tell people they are being ridiculous for needing a feature that they have had access too since they got their BB and then RIM REMOVED that feature on 2.0. There is a problem here. Simply put, if RIM would have just left folders on there, this thread would not be nearly as long.
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