"Push" available with non-Blackberry devices? - BlackBerryForums.com : Your Number One BlackBerry Community

jeremy · **"Push" available with non-Blackberry devices? -** 09-14-2004, 07:32 PM

With the plethora of PDAs available in the marketplace, is the "push" capability--for which the Blackberries are so popular--available in any other devices?

I have been wondering this because, although I'm addicted to my Blackberry (which I affectionately call my Crackberry) because of receiving e-mails instantly, it does not seem open-source friendly and this is important to me. I get to use a lot of free software that is on-par with the closed-source stuff, but I cannot sync the Blackberry with standards-based, open platforms like I could do with a Palm-based device.

Tom · 09-14-2004, 07:41 PM

At the moment yes, but dont worry.. soon, it will happen very soon.

Mark Rejhon · 07:05 PM

Advantages of BlackBerry: Why BlackBerry?

BlackBerry is only for businesses? Not anymore! BlackBerry can now be for everyone - individuals, consumers, kids, even hackers and hardcore computer users. BlackBerry can be fun too - You can now run chat software today more efficiently than many other handheld wireless devices, for example! MSN, ICQ, IRC too!

Yes, other handheld devices have email. But what makes BlackBerry stand out? Why is BlackBerry called Crackberry by addicted users? There's push available for other devices such as Goodlink for TREO. Unfortunately, all of them are more proprietary -- you have to pay a huge arm and leg for these solutions. Apart from the big $$$$ you have to pay for other push email solutions, don't forget the other BlackBerry advantages:

(Note, this list below applies to full BlackBerries, not the 7100 series)

Longer battery life: Blackberry consistently lasts longer than other handhelds like PalmOS. Example, on the 7280, you can even run instant messenger software for 100 hours nonstop always-on, untethered, with the screen constantly turned on (with backlight turned off). PalmOS: Certain models of PalmOS machines have excellent battery life. PalmOS handhelds have much faster CPU's which drain batteries faster

Ruggedized: Blackberry handhelds survives drops much better than other handhelds such as Treo's or iPaq's. PalmOS: There are some models that are ruggedized, but on general, BlackBerry is far more ruggedized - The 62XX and 72XX series easily survives drops from waist height to asphalt, and often survives worse accidents than that too.

Data Loss Prevention: You can yank the battery out of your BlackBerry for a full week and put it back in one week later, all your data is still there. Everything is written to flash ROM on the fly, even your email drafts, so you don't need to make backups like you would with Palm or iPaq. PalmOS: The new Tungsten T5 now works this way; using Flash ROM instead of RAM. This may become a more common feature in future handhelds. This is a SORELY needed feature for everybody of us who hate Palm/PocketPC tendancy to lose data occasionally.

Security: All connections are encrypted. And applications need to be signed before they can access critical features interesting to virus authors. Blackberry come with the capability for remote-controlled lobotomy to delete your data if your Blackberry is ever stolen. Blackberry also requires cyptographic signing by RIM before the application can do any damage to the operating system or databases, which makes it much more impossible to write a virus for the BlackBerry than for Palm/PocketPC. PalmOS: Sill FAR behind. Although an advantage with Palm is you can get cameras, SD slot, full Bluetooth profiles, etc, while RIM is very picky about adding such features because they are considered "security concerns".

Email Software: The email on the Blackberry is superior to the other wireless push email software, even the recently available Treo push email software; PalmOS: You can use Goodlink to improve things on the Treo platform, but it's still a Palm platform with the included disadvantages listed elsewhere.

Stability: Uptimes well over 60 days are getting common on BlackBerry nowadays. Not nearly as common for Palm and iPaq handhelds. PalmOS: Much harder to have this stability especially after adding lots of third party software that runs 24/7 in the background.

Always On, No Connecting Needed: The BlackBerry is like a wireless Cable/DSL connection. It's always there. No connecting needed. It may not be as fast as a home cable/DSL connection, but it's always-on. PalmOS: Most models require you to manually reconnect especially after it's been in standby for a while, or you turned it off. It is improving though.

Configuration Free: No need to worry about configuring email software to automatically start up when resetting a Palm; no need to worry about whether the email software is running in the background or if it has crashed. The RIM handheld ensures that email is running at all times; by making it impossible to exit the push email software by accident. PalmOS: If you accidentally exit the email software, oops. This is impossible on BlackBerry -- you cannot exit the email software. There is no "QUIT" menu item in the BlackBerry email software at all!

No power button needed:Unlike on Palm/iPaq handhelds, on the Blackberry, it uses so little power, you just put it down -- no need for a power button at all. You can electronically turn off via menus, for those times like airplanes, etc, but with email reception of 4 to 9 days (assuming data-only usage) there is almost no need to turn off the unit. You get email, the email shows up immediately on the screen, and you can put it away immediately without touching a button or screen, if email is not important. No need to click "Do you want to read this message?", the email is automatically displayed pager-style when you pull the BlackBerry out of your holster. PalmOS: There's often a power button. This is an advantage if you eat up a lot of battery power, but the BlackBerry uses so little battery power, that all models of BlackBerry (Except BlackBerry 7100) has no standby or power button at all, you can just put it down or holster it.

More Idiot Proof: Using a touchscreen is lots of fun! But, some people argue that a touchscreen is a disadvantage when it comes to a mission critical pocket device. It takes more steps to correct mistakes caused by accident caused by a stylus tap, than caused by an accidental button press. It's very easy to execute sequences of memorized button keypresses to do specific things, and it's easy to correct an accidental wrong-button press. So that's why some of us believe touchscreens are a big hassle for a mobile device -- because of accidental taps messing things up, especially when you put it inside your pocket with the screen turned on. PalmOS: Usually, more problems occurs more quickly on a Palm handheld with random stylus taps ... than with random button presses on a BlackBerry.

Yes, PalmOS is more flexible but there are over 10 open source applications written recently for the BlackBerry and it is starting to explode.

In Year 2004, BlackBerry software went through an explosion. At the beginning of 2004, there were only 2 chat software programs available for BlackBerry. At the end of 2004, there were over 15 chat programs. The BlackBerry software explosion continues in 2005 and beyond. Software that did not exist 6 months ago, now exist! Even scientific calculators, word processors, spreadsheet software, photo viewers, are now available on BlackBerry!

For the hardcore computer users, BlackBerry is getting more and more open source software too -- It's just a matter of time before Linux sync is available. Most applications do not even need RIM to sign it. And even so, RIM recently signed open source applications, including BlackChat (to permit it to hook into Notifications; something you don't want a virus to do). Please see the Developer forum for a listing of open source J2ME software; we need more open source developers for BlackBerry!

While iPaq/Palm may have more software, and better multimedia handhelds (GPS navigation, MAME emulator, 3D videogames, MP3 playback), they don't make very good wireless productivity handhelds. I, myself (Mark Rejhon), have both a BlackBerry and an iPaq. Currently, my BlackBerry gets over 90% usage and my iPaq gets less than 10% usage.

Don't forget -- BlackBerry PIM is no longer inferior to the default Palm and PocketPC PIM, ever since BlackBerryOS 4.0. You can now out-manage a Palm/PocketPC using a thumb keyboard with shortcuts found in BlackBerry Calendar Tricks and other BlackBerry Tips and Tricks.. There is now even a third party "Today" style program for BlackBerry, if you like such a PocketPC feature! BlackBerry PIM is not inferior anymore nowadays - this is now finally a myth. For more information, see BlackBerry Myths Busted: The Modern 2005-Era BlackBerry.

If you are a Sidekick user comparing a BlackBerry to a Sidekick, you should check this BlackBerry Versus Sidekick post.

Tip For Computer Programmers: If you are a programmer, and prefer a certain feature such as Linux compatibility, here's an idea. Instead of looking at inferior "push email" alternatives, I urge you to help us write a Linux synchronization utility for BlackBerry, now that it is technically possible to do so! Why not write your own open source sync software for BlackBerry? The PocketMac people successfully reversed engineer the BlackBerry synchronization, they may be able to help!

[Edit: Updated Article With New Version]

Quote:

This is a "Mark Rejhon BlackBerry FAQ" article.
Copyright (C) 2005 by Mark Rejhon, All Rights Reserved. Some portions may be Copyright (C) by respective forum members.
Mark Rejhon grants permission to use this article only for private use. For all other uses, please ask Mark Rejhon at www.marky.com to ask for permission to use this article. If any content of this article also contains content by other forum members, please ask them for permission too as well. This includes commercial use, public use, reposting in full/part anywhere on the Internet, publication in magazine/book or any other media, or any other use than private use. This copyright notice may not be edited or removed in any manner. Mark Rejhon reserves exclusive right to edit, remove, or restore this article, and this article may not be edited, removed, or restored by any other individual or organizations.

bfrye · 09-14-2004, 07:46 PM

Surprising actually... that a linux-based solution hasn't been worked out yet. That's usually the first platform new things are developed/hacked apart on. Remember PS2?

Anyone else biting nails on the first linux-based blackberry device? :P

Mark Rejhon · 09-14-2004, 07:55 PM

Here's a listing of some open source applications I've found:
http://blackberryclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=54

Here's a listing of Blackberry API's and mobile java API's I've found:
http://blackberryclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=270

Here's the Blackberry SDK Download:
http://www.blackberry.com/developers...download.shtml

eradis · 09-14-2004, 08:11 PM

"Push" is actually part of the MIDP 2.0 Specification. This means any MIDP 2.0 compliant device could theoretically have blackberry push like functionality.

Mark Rejhon · 09-14-2004, 09:01 PM

Incidentially, BlackberryOS 4.0 devices support MIDP 2.0;

arbos · 09-15-2004, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon

Actually, BlackBerry is getting more and more open source Blackberry -- it's a matter of time before Linux sync is available. Most applications do not even need RIM to sign it. And even so, RIM recently signed open source applications, including BlackChat (to permit it to hook into Notifications; something you don't want a virus to do). Please see the Developer forum for a listing of open source J2ME software; we need more open source developers for BlackBerry!

There's push available for other devices such as Goodlink for TREO. Unfortunately, all of them are more proprietary -- you have to pay a huge arm and leg for these solutions.

If you are a programmer -- why not write your own open source sync software for BlackBerry? The PocketMac people successfully reversed engineer the BlackBerry synchronization, this would help;

Apart from the big $$$$ you have to pay for other push email solutions, don't forget the other BlackBerry advantages:

Longer battery life: Blackberry consistently lasts longer than other handhelds like PalmOS. Example, on the 7280, you can even run instant messenger software for 100 hours nonstop always-on, untethered, with the screen constantly turned on (with backlight turned off).
Ruggedized: Blackberry handhelds survives drops much better than other handhelds such as Treo's or iPaq's
Data Loss Prevention: You can yank the battery out of your BlackBerry for a full week and put it back in one week later, all your data is still there. Everything is written to flash ROM on the fly, even your email drafts, so you don't need to make backups like you would with Palm or iPaq.
Security: All connections are encrypted. And applications need to be signed before they can access critical features interesting to virus authors. Blackberry come with the capability for remote-controlled lobotomy to delete your data if your Blackberry is ever stolen. Blackberry also requires cyptographic signing by RIM before the application can do any damage to the operating system or databases, which makes it much more impossible to write a virus for the BlackBerry than for Palm/PocketPC.
Email Software: The email on the Blackberry is superior to the other wireless push email software, even the recently available Treo push email software;
Stability: Uptimes well over 60 days are getting common on BlackBerry nowadays. Not nearly as common for Palm and iPaq handhelds.
Configuration Free: No need to worry about configuring email software to automatically start up when resetting a Palm; no need to worry about whether the email software is running in the background or if it has crashed. The RIM handheld ensures that email is running at all times; by making it impossible to exit the push email software by accident.
No power button needed:Unlike on Palm/iPaq handhelds, on the Blackberry, it uses so little power, you just put it down -- no need for a power button at all. You can electronically turn off via menus, for those times like airplanes, etc, but with email reception of 4 to 9 days (assuming data-only usage) there is almost no need to turn off the unit. You get email, the email shows up immediately on the screen, and you can put it away immediately without touching a button or screen, if email is not important. No need to click "Do you want to read this message?", the email is automatically displayed pager-style when you pull the BlackBerry out of your holster.

Yes, PalmOS is more flexible but there are over 10 open source applications written recently for the BlackBerry and it is starting to explode; it's still very early, but we are witnessing the head end of an application explosion.

While iPaq/Palm makes better multimedia handhelds (GPS, MAME emulator, 3D videogames, MP3 playback), they don't make very good wireless productivity handhelds.
Instead of looking at inferior "push email" alternatives, I urge you to help us write a Linux synchronization utility for BlackBerry, now that it is technically possible to do so!

My BlackBerry gets 85% usage and my iPaq gets only 15% usage.

Good stuff Mark, you made me appreciate my even more than i do now

jeremy · 09-15-2004, 05:16 PM

Thanks for your reply, Mark. You made a lot of great points. There are definitely many other reasons to appreciate the Blackberry over other mobile devices.

I don't know that I can contribute much to a sync software project since I'm a relatively new programmer, but I will get involved and help however I can!

jeremy · 09-15-2004, 05:19 PM

Oh yeah! I've got Linux running on my iPAQ. 8)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfrye

Surprising actually... that a linux-based solution hasn't been worked out yet. That's usually the first platform new things are developed/hacked apart on. Remember PS2?

Anyone else biting nails on the first linux-based blackberry device? :P

Mark Rejhon · 09-15-2004, 06:13 PM

With the BlueTooth enabled 7290 and the Blackberry 7100 series (Charm), there will be a lot more consumers who will demanding more software, and the number of BlackBerry applications being developed is accelerating and currently at about 5-10 times the pace it was just 12 months ago. Just recently, somebody posted that a company is experimenting with Bluetooth peripherals (Bluetooth GPS), which would be a good sign for BlackBerry's future in the ability to provide bonus features beyond its most important advantages.

At the other end, other handhelds are catching up in providing similiar push email, such as Goodlink on TREO handhelds, as well as some other email solutions. Another thing is that RIM Blackberry Connect is going to gradually become available for Palm/PocketPC smartphones. Some people will prefer the cool factor of a camera phone! RIM will stick to some really good strengths of BlackBerry, so a genune BlackBerry will still have advantages over a handheld that is running Blackberry Connect. This may frustrate people who would like RIM to add features more quickly to BlackBerry, but people familiar with RIM knows they will be very cautious to protect their core markets.

There are some that legitimately need multiple platforms at this time. There are some organizations that have deployed solutions that coexist between BlackBerry, PocketPC, and PalmOS.

One thing for clear, is that the Blackberry application disadvantage is definitely going to greatly diminish during Year 2005; with a very large third-party software explosion. It used to be that PocketPC had a big disadvantage relative to PalmOS in application availability, but the difference between the two of them is relatively small compared to three or four years ago. There is nothing stopping BlackBerry from eventually becoming a serious competitor in terms of application availability.

jeremy · 09-15-2004, 06:15 PM

Glad to hear it, Mark! Thanks for all your insight.

bperkins · 09-15-2004, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arbos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon

Actually, BlackBerry is getting more and more open source Blackberry -- it's a matter of time before Linux sync is available. Most applications do not even need RIM to sign it. And even so, RIM recently signed open source applications, including BlackChat (to permit it to hook into Notifications; something you don't want a virus to do). Please see the Developer forum for a listing of open source J2ME software; we need more open source developers for BlackBerry!

There's push available for other devices such as Goodlink for TREO. Unfortunately, all of them are more proprietary -- you have to pay a huge arm and leg for these solutions.

If you are a programmer -- why not write your own open source sync software for BlackBerry? The PocketMac people successfully reversed engineer the BlackBerry synchronization, this would help;

Apart from the big $$$$ you have to pay for other push email solutions, don't forget the other BlackBerry advantages:

Longer battery life: Blackberry consistently lasts longer than other handhelds like PalmOS. Example, on the 7280, you can even run instant messenger software for 100 hours nonstop always-on, untethered, with the screen constantly turned on (with backlight turned off).
Ruggedized: Blackberry handhelds survives drops much better than other handhelds such as Treo's or iPaq's
Data Loss Prevention: You can yank the battery out of your BlackBerry for a full week and put it back in one week later, all your data is still there. Everything is written to flash ROM on the fly, even your email drafts, so you don't need to make backups like you would with Palm or iPaq.
Security: All connections are encrypted. And applications need to be signed before they can access critical features interesting to virus authors. Blackberry come with the capability for remote-controlled lobotomy to delete your data if your Blackberry is ever stolen. Blackberry also requires cyptographic signing by RIM before the application can do any damage to the operating system or databases, which makes it much more impossible to write a virus for the BlackBerry than for Palm/PocketPC.
Email Software: The email on the Blackberry is superior to the other wireless push email software, even the recently available Treo push email software;
Stability: Uptimes well over 60 days are getting common on BlackBerry nowadays. Not nearly as common for Palm and iPaq handhelds.
Configuration Free: No need to worry about configuring email software to automatically start up when resetting a Palm; no need to worry about whether the email software is running in the background or if it has crashed. The RIM handheld ensures that email is running at all times; by making it impossible to exit the push email software by accident.
No power button needed:Unlike on Palm/iPaq handhelds, on the Blackberry, it uses so little power, you just put it down -- no need for a power button at all. You can electronically turn off via menus, for those times like airplanes, etc, but with email reception of 4 to 9 days (assuming data-only usage) there is almost no need to turn off the unit. You get email, the email shows up immediately on the screen, and you can put it away immediately without touching a button or screen, if email is not important. No need to click "Do you want to read this message?", the email is automatically displayed pager-style when you pull the BlackBerry out of your holster.

Yes, PalmOS is more flexible but there are over 10 open source applications written recently for the BlackBerry and it is starting to explode; it's still very early, but we are witnessing the head end of an application explosion.

While iPaq/Palm makes better multimedia handhelds (GPS, MAME emulator, 3D videogames, MP3 playback), they don't make very good wireless productivity handhelds.
Instead of looking at inferior "push email" alternatives, I urge you to help us write a Linux synchronization utility for BlackBerry, now that it is technically possible to do so!

My BlackBerry gets 85% usage and my iPaq gets only 15% usage.

Good stuff Mark, you made me appreciate my even more than i do now

Yeah thanks a lot Mark! ;->. I have never used a BB, and I am waiting for the 7100t to come out to buy one. And thanks to your post I now am craving it even more.

kirson · 09-15-2004, 08:51 PM

Just to add some other perspective...I use my Blackberry 7230 for EVERYTHING. It's my PIM, my Calendar, my To Do, my photo album, my phone, my claculator, my web browser, my mobile game device -- and obviously, my ALWAYS ON, ALWAYS AVAILABLE email device. It is a marvelous device. The combination of everything is great, and email simply cannot be touched by any other device.

Now, on the negative side, almost everything I do with the Blackberry can be done a bit better on other devices.

But very rarely on the same device.

The closest competition today, in my opinion, is the Treo. Yup -- battery life is not as good. Yup -- it's not as rugged. Yup -- the keyboard isn't as good. And DEFINITELY -- the push email isn't as good. But it is very close. And in every other aspect, the Treo kicks the Blackberry's butt --> screen, resolution, PIM, applications, OS, phone, general functionality, gaming, video, etc., etc., etc.

So, is there a bottom line to this post? Not really. I wish Blackberry and Treo development teams sat down together and developed a device with the best of both worlds. That would be sweet. Perhaps the new Siemens SK65 will come close. Perhaps the new Nokia. And heck, the new Treo is looking pretty jazzed.

For now, if you need EVERYTHING -- I suggest the Blackberry. Where it rocks, it can't be beat. And where it can be beat -- who cares? If the 7100t keyboard ends up working as well as RIM claims, perhaps THAT will be THE device. My guess is we will have to wait a bit longer for the real Ultimate Device.

Just my $0.71 (due to word count)

mark.hogan · 09-16-2004, 08:24 PM

I'd have to say Nice job on the reasons Mark. I'm switching from an Axim, my2way and cell to a 7230. I'll keep the axim for wireless web color screen real pdf viewing and my LARGE databases, but the bb IS the communications device.

If you absolutly, positivly, must recieve and send it now ... do it on a BB

Ang Lim · 01-23-2005, 03:20 AM

Many of us have important text files previously created using Palm or Ipaq. Any one has the clue of importing this text files to 7730 BB?

Also, it would be fantastic if we can edit Memopad files in the PC after backing them up. Any one can advise here?

dextr0us · 01-23-2005, 02:20 PM

I switched from a zire 71 to BB, and the way I did it was through MS Outlook. I imported all of my old palm DBs, and then synched my BB and it was all good.

sempai · 02-22-2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon

Here's a listing of some open source applications I've found:
http://blackberryclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=54

Here's a listing of Blackberry API's and mobile java API's I've found:
http://blackberryclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=270

Here's the Blackberry SDK Download:
http://www.blackberry.com/developers...download.shtml

Guys, you're missing out on the fact that Sync4j (.org) is working on a full SyncML server written in Java that will work with the 'Berry. In fact if you read the mailing list archives there are people already working on open source syncing.

This will make Linux users happy, I'm sure.

austex · 05-08-2005, 08:48 PM

Longer battery life: Blackberry consistently lasts longer than other handhelds like PalmOS. Example, on the 7280, you can even run instant messenger software for 100 hours nonstop always-on, untethered, with the screen constantly turned on (with backlight turned off).

My 7520 gets about 50 hours battery life. Is that normal?

mikealdo · 05-08-2005, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by austex

Longer battery life: Blackberry consistently lasts longer than other handhelds like PalmOS. Example, on the 7280, you can even run instant messenger software for 100 hours nonstop always-on, untethered, with the screen constantly turned on (with backlight turned off).

My 7520 gets about 50 hours battery life. Is that normal?

From my experiences with a 7520, I'd say 50 hours was VERY good !!!

Active_Matrix · 05-08-2005, 08:57 PM

Hey guys, just to point out. That SDK download link isnt live anymore. Someone has to contact ya. :(

austex · 05-08-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikealdo

From my experiences with a 7520, I'd say 50 hours was VERY good !!!

I live and work in an urban area, close to cellphone towers. That means the BB doesn't have to use much power for transmitting, so its battery life is probably enhanced.

robhawley · **Cheap Treo solution -** 05-08-2005, 11:08 PM

To be fair, there is an in-expensive PUSH e-mail solution for the Treo. By using IMAP ($20/year IIRC through fastmail.fm) and ChatterMail (about $30 IIRC), you have a good push e-mail solution at least on par with BWC. From my own experience it does cut the Treo's battery life by 50% and uses about twice the amount of data as a Blackberry.

Having said that, I traded my Treo for a 7100r and haven't looked back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon

There's push available for other devices such as Goodlink for TREO. Unfortunately, all of them are more proprietary -- you have to pay a huge arm and leg for these solutions. Apart from the big $$$$ you have to pay for other push email solutions,

tpblackberry · 05-09-2005, 12:26 AM

Any idea on the battery life of the 7230, you think it's pretty close to the 7520?

colonel · 06-22-2005, 05:57 AM

not sure why you say 'this does not apply to the 7100 series'.
I think it all does.
In addition, the 7100 series has a higher resolution brighter screen, is slimmer and lighter. I know 'full keyboard guys' scoff at suretype, but thats before you've used it. Its great.

In any event, if you want email, IM, RSS & web browsing in one device. with instant access there is no other device that touches it:

1. Treo/palm os. Heavy, large, primitive email. Lack of good applications. No useful mulitmedia facilities.
2. Pocket PC. Really powerful device. Great software, screens, games and video. But poor battery life. And WM smartphone not really in the same league as bb. No good keyboards in small form factor. Primitive email.
3. Symbian. Great as a phone. 3rd party software getting better. However, Diary limited and pull email a hassle. No good keyboards.
4. Blackberry 7100. Small, slim, great screen. Email, web, IM and internet services generally instant and a different league from other devices. Keyboard great but requires a 2 hour learning curve (then faster then 'full micro keyboard'). However, games and other 3rd party software limited and no really multimedia facilities (totally unessessary for this device IMHO)
5. Blackberry 72xx. Nice screen. Email, web, IM and internet services generally instant and a different league from other devices. Keyboard good, but contributes to size and weight of device. However, games and other 3rd party software limited and no real multimedia facilities (totally unessessary for this device IMHO).

thats my 2cents

Good_Guy · 06-23-2005, 08:49 AM

Mark, you make very good points in your comparison and most are dead on. Although you are probably one of the biggest BB zealots on the fact of the planet, in general your advice/comments are fairly even handed. That being said, there are a couple things to keep in mind

Battery life: Spot on. However, you fail to mention that the processor in a Treo/PPC is much more powerful than in the BB which is a direct correlation to battery life.

Ruggedized: Yup. No doubt, though I would be curious to get your impressions on the 'ruggedability' of the 7100 as I have see one, but haven't dropped one. Seems a bit more fragile than the 62XX or 72XX, but maybe not as much as the Treo

Data Loss Prevention: 650 no longer uses volatile memory storage, so you can yank the battery out for a week and be fine.

Security: I haven't seen a PalmOS based virus outside of phage that popped up back in 2000. That being said, that is not to say that it won't happen and you are wrong in your assesment. The other points are very true and <blatant plug> with GoodLink, those are addressed</blatant plug>, but I understand that the majority of the Treos ouyt there are NOT running GoodLink, so you are 100% correct. PPC is another animal entirely and MSFT being known as the security gurus they are, it won't happen on that platform.

Email: You mention GoodLink and with the recent agreement with Cingular, GoodLink is now less expensive than Blackberry and runs on PocketPC devices with Windows Mobile support coming soon. This is not, however, the place to look at BB vs GoodLink.

Stability: This is one of the most debated items out there, though in general, you are correct. I can say that I have never had a stability issue with my Treo, but again, BB is a very stable platform. Several factors can be pointed to, the most obvious being that it is a much more mature product. We won't mention the recent outages

though they are typically few and far between.

I think the key deciding factor in determining which PDA to use is how you want to use it and that 'typical' usage pattern is changing almost daily. I am not one that says BB will soon become obsolete as they are the dominant player in this space, however, the competition, not just from the likes of Good, SYNC, Visto, et al, is heating up dramatically. RIMM, is in essence, a hardware manufacturer and with HP jumping in with the 6515, they get added to the list that contains Siemens and Motorola as the RIMM competitors.

southwestcomm · 06-23-2005, 09:07 AM

My $0.02 on this topic.

1. The guys at Microsoft recently unveiled their "Direct Push" system, which according to this article <http://www.wirelessnewsfactor.com/story.xhtml?story_id=36078> will:
...will transfer messages straight from the latest version of Microsoft Exchange Server to devices running Microsoft's newest Windows Mobile software. The company says the approach doesn't require an extra server or other infrastructure used in the BlackBerry system, making it less expensive.

It's always fun to tear apart these marketing announcements. Microsoft's Pieter Knook (what a name!), mentioned in the conference call that Microsoft has more than 100 million people using 'different versions of Exchange', while RIM only has 3 million subscribers. What he neglected to mention was that Direct Push will require a specific version of Exchange Server 2003, yet to be released, which means that even if the software is released later this year, it'll be a couple months before most large organizations put the release on the boxes and then probably another couple months while they evaluate the effectiveness of Direct Push. Oh, and then they have to get 3 million people to either upgrade their phone / PDA's to Windows Mobile 5.0 or buy new phones that support Windows Mobile 5.0. In short, they're still at least a year away from even moving out of vaporware status. And if Longhorn is any indication, I wouldn't be holding your breath.

2. Yes, the Goodlink Email server is less expensive than a BES but if you want MDS funcitionality expect to pay thousands of extra dollars for the additional server.

Good_Guy · 06-23-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

My $0.02 on this topic.

1. It's always fun to tear apart these marketing announcements. Microsoft's Pieter Knook (what a name!), mentioned in the conference call that Microsoft has more than 100 million people using 'different versions of Exchange', while RIM only has 3 million subscribers. What he neglected to mention was that Direct Push will require a specific version of Exchange Server 2003, yet to be released, which means that even if the software is released later this year, it'll be a couple months before most large organizations put the release on the boxes and then probably another couple months while they evaluate the effectiveness of Direct Push. Oh, and then they have to get 3 million people to either upgrade their phone / PDA's to Windows Mobile 5.0 or buy new phones that support Windows Mobile 5.0. In short, they're still at least a year away from even moving out of vaporware status. And if Longhorn is any indication, I wouldn't be holding your breath.

2. Yes, the Goodlink Email server is less expensive than a BES but if you want MDS funcitionality expect to pay thousands of extra dollars for the additional server.

1. You are 100% correct. Service Pack 2 for Exchange 2003 will be required for the MSFP (Messaging and Security Feature Pack). Even with that, you hit the nail on the head in that there isn't an enterprise in the world that is going to immediately throw SP2 on their Exchange boxes until at least the first patch is released. I think you are being generous in giving them a year. I would guess closer to two.

2. The key difference between GoodAccess and MDS (again, this is not the thread for this, but just a clarification to your point) is that once GoodAccess is installed, you can access any applicatioin that supports web services using AboveAll Studio. No third party intervention/integration is required.

southwestcomm · 06-23-2005, 01:14 PM

Last point - MDS is free - GoodAccess is not.

aau007 · 06-23-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

Last point - MDS is free - GoodAccess is not.

MDS is more like a proxy for the BB unit. GoodAccess is for applications deployment. They serve different purposes.

Good_Guy · 06-23-2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

Last point - MDS is free - GoodAccess is not.

And you get what you pay for.

Sorry, had to

This is a legitimate question and not meant to be critical as I simply do not know:

With MDS, what can you do, out of the box, without any other add-ons or third party apps?

southwestcomm · 06-23-2005, 09:46 PM

Push application data, request application/database data, access to backend systems, Java aware application access, etc. Yes, you may require third party software to achieve your final goal but the MDS functionality is part of the BES. It is an extra cost to deploy that functionality with the Good solution.

Good_Guy · 06-23-2005, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

Push application data, request application/database data, access to backend systems, Java aware application access, etc. Yes, you may require third party software to achieve your final goal but the MDS functionality is part of the BES. It is an extra cost to deploy that functionality with the Good solution.

I know what MDS does, but what is required to push app data, access backend systems, etc? Does an applet/application need to be written or purchased? If that is the case, then MDS is more of a conduit that requires additional application to actually utilize it, which will be an extra cost.

southwestcomm · 06-24-2005, 09:30 AM

The requirement to push data or application data is the same for the MDS or the Good solution. My point is that MDS is FREE it requires the purchase of an additonal server from Good to provide the functionality.

Good_Guy · 06-24-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

The requirement to push data or application data is the same for the MDS or the Good solution. My point is that MDS is FREE it requires the purchase of an additonal server from Good to provide the functionality.

And my point is the transport is free, but you are going to end paying to have the applications to actually use the transport, be it through development or purchasing third party applications. With GoodAccess, once you purchase GoodAccess, that is it. There is no development required,there is no third-pary app required. You have apps that have web services, you drag and drop the fields you want to query, push it to the phones, and it is functional. No additional cost.

aau007 · 06-24-2005, 11:11 AM

For people on BES, MDS provides better web experience. However, Goodlink users don't need anything similar to MDS since on the Palm or PPC with internet access and builtin web browser, web experience is at least as good if not better. Only time Goodlink users need GoodAccess is when they need applications publishing. Without the need of applications publishing, a conduit like MDS on Goodlink is moot. Push applications via MDS also has to be specifically written for MDS, which means development cost or pay-to-push.

aau007 · 06-24-2005, 11:20 AM

BTW, Goodlink has Global Connect now.

shadowlesss · 09:09 AM

With Exchange SP2 coming out in the near future, many of the PDA's with Microsoft OS's can now take advantage of push technology. Also these Companies have devices that will work with Active Sync Technology

palmOne, Motorola, Nokia, Symbian, DataViz

Shad

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy

With the plethora of PDAs available in the marketplace, is the "push" capability--for which the Blackberries are so popular--available in any other devices?

I have been wondering this because, although I'm addicted to my Blackberry (which I affectionately call my Crackberry) because of receiving e-mails instantly, it does not seem open-source friendly and this is important to me. I get to use a lot of free software that is on-par with the closed-source stuff, but I cannot sync the Blackberry with standards-based, open platforms like I could do with a Palm-based device.

Good_Guy · 10-04-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowlesss

With Exchange SP2 coming out in the near future, many of the PDA's with Microsoft OS's can now take advantage of push technology. Also these Companies have devices that will work with Active Sync Technology

palmOne, Motorola, Nokia, Symbian, DataViz

Shad

Couple of clarifications: DatViz does not make devices.

As for SP2, while it appears to be great, especially being free, there have already been concerns voiced regarding security and if it is truly 'push' (as BES, GoodLink, and others). It remains to be seen if MSFT delivers on what they say will be in SP2 as it relates the messaging portion.

shadowlesss · 10-04-2005, 01:21 PM

Picky Picky....well they do develop applications for devices for which they must have a licence.

With Microsoft there is always a security threat but we still use the technology!

Shad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Couple of clarifications: DatViz does not make devices.

As for SP2, while it appears to be great, especially being free, there have already been concerns voiced regarding security and if it is truly 'push' (as BES, GoodLink, and others). It remains to be seen if MSFT delivers on what they say will be in SP2 as it relates the messaging portion.