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Old 02-25-2007, 03:28 PM   #41 (permalink)
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@ cp6169: please don't take this as a personal affront, but I'm going to quote you (and SpainBerry) to get a point across. There is no animosity below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cp6169
Pinstack chooses to participate in the BB Community, helping other BB users learn and grow. We are not biased, we are very friendly, and welcome all members, whether they are new to a forum, or belong to BBF or any other BB forum.
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Originally Posted by SpainBerry
I think the aim of a forum is too help people, to comment and solve problems, to show new things, etc etc TO SHARE !!!!
Pinstack does indeed welcome new members, and the moderators welcome them - but then again, so does this forum. No problems here, we're all wanting to talk about BlackBerry devices. BUT, the key differentiation here is that Pinstack *specifically* prohibits any linking and mention to a "competitor" site; it is laid out in the Terms of Service very succinctly. They don't mention BBF or any other site by name.

I am a believer in the open sharing of information, and this ToS clause goes against my moral standing; I'm one of those open source, EFF, ACLU nutbags that believes in rights and privacy and openness. Unfortunately I did not read the ToS this closely when joining (it's kinda buried towards the bottom), which is entirely my fault. But once pointed at it I took a stand and I stick to my guns.

The problem then faced by persons such as SanFrancisco and myself is that we were gone after very quickly for posting cross-links between these two forums; his experience was bad, but mine was polite and reasonable. I respect the Pinstack ToS and understand the need to comply, so I can't argue about my post(s) being edited and links and mention of BBF being removed. It is what it is and the mod handled it amicably.

However *morally* this is like saying "what goes on in pinstack, stays in pinstack" -- it expressly prohibits me, a dude trying to help people, from pointing to information at another site that A) has already been written, and B) could help the person in 3 seconds because there's an entire thread of existing knowledge. I do not believe in this -- do you see an such clause in the BBF ToS prohibiting links to Pinstack? (or generically a "competitor"). Or the HowardForums ToS? What about linking to my blog article about BlackBerry stuff that links to BBF? Stop the madness.

So basically Pinstack is not playing the "game" morally fair; other websites could link to Pinstack, but Pinstack will erase any and all reciprocol links and mentions of the other websites. How can you possibly defend such a position? Just think, if everyone played the game this way there would be no Apache, Samba, or Firefox!
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:29 PM   #42 (permalink)
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As for the usage of Blackberryforums.pinstack.com I really don't see the point it describes the content of the forums. If pinstack were a Treo Forum then the subdomain would also indicate the content of the site. Example the site pinstack.com has Treo Forums available = Treoforums.pinstack.com.

How can anyone expect to challenge on the use of "another companies" Trademarked name (Blackberry) when here at BBF you already use the word Blackberry in the legally registered domain name. There is no requirement to register sub domains anywhere in the world as it's clear they are sub-areas of a main site.

Blackberry the registered Trademark of RIM is used here because it describes the content and layout of the other site. However, try registering BlackBerryforums for a Trademark...

I can't say if agree or not with Hayden for posting the emails but when you made the offer he posted it in our Private Mod forums 1st - with a smile - as you had already banned/censored the word pinstack.com to ********** and he stated that now you've sent an offer, the censorship was lifted.

I wouldn't even say what was discussed there in private. But we were all involved as something no one gave serious thought to. I can understand if you are upset about that but don't try to swap it around as if Pinstack Started this. Both sites have their strengths and most users visit many BB sites. I know the retaliation to Hayden's "no" before even mentioning a price is what got him upset and not keen on linking to BBF unless necessary since any thread on BBF about Pinstack is in a negative light as this one. Such isn't the case on PinStack except of course the other site of this story...

blackberryforums.pinstack.com/6257-blackberryforums_com_offers_buy_pinstack_com.html

Last edited by cp6169 : 02-25-2007 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 04:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I've always wanted to know: What is a Pinstack?
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:20 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cp6169
How can anyone expect to challenge on the use of "another companies" Trademarked name (Blackberry) when here at BBF you already use the word Blackberry in the legally registered domain name. There is no requirement to register sub domains anywhere in the world as it's clear they are sub-areas of a main site.

Blackberry the registered Trademark of RIM is used here because it describes the content and layout of the other site. However, try registering BlackBerryforums for a Trademark...
Your comments are very insightful and show your intelligence. However:

Intellectual property is a very complicated area of law. Major cases on domain name and theft started popping up in the late 90's as the Internet grew.

One line of cases that came out was the unlawful ripping off of another's domain name so to capitalize or benefit from such.

While trademark and copyright law may arise in litigation and criminal prosecution, cases have applied the full range of common law tort theories to prosecutions. [I will spare naming the causes of action].

IMHO one way to prevail on such claims is to prove that the domain name, such as PinStack's, creates confusion and/or misdirects users to PinStack when they meant or wanted to go to BBF.

IMHO such misdirection affects BBF and has caused it damage in terms of advertising revenue, etc. [Mainly because advertisers want to know where the domains show up in Google].

The only reason I know about this stuff is because over the past 10 years major competitors in my business have attempted to manipulate their position on Google so to kick me off from my place on Google [#1] and to also diminish my page rank [5].

I have had to send these companies letters telling them to immediately delete all meta tags, etc. or I would get a TRO, injunction and sue for damages. Each time the violators complied and went away with their tails between their legs.

My point is that all this domain and Net "stuff" deals with more than copyright and trademark law. Fortunately, the law has caught up with those who machinate to take advantage of others via Net trickery [e.g., with meta tag manipulation, redirects, misdirects, consumer confusion].

And IMHO one cannot proclaim an innocent intent when registering a domain name that includes the name of another well-established web site. I can assure you that if someone took my domain name, placed it in the first part of their domain name, well... I'd have them in Fed Court instantly as if by magic.

Last edited by SanFrancisco : 02-25-2007 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 02-25-2007, 05:43 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cp6169
not keen on linking to BBF unless necessary since any thread on BBF about Pinstack is in a negative light as this one. Such isn't the case on PinStack except of course the other site of this story...
Again I'm not directing this at you in a personal manner, but your statement doesn't really hold water. Why? The posts get *deleted*. (1)

I just went to Pinstack, searched "blackberryforums BBF". Go to page #2 of the results, and there are several threads dealing with pinstack/bbf stuff (I'm not defending anything, merely illustrating) -- now try to actually go to the links and they've been deleted. But of course because this is a Google search under the hood, the cached versions are showing up.

Mods/hayden et. al. all have the 100% undeniable right to do this, but I'm using it to illustrate my point about the forum not allowing the free flow of speech, even if it's something that they don't like. Did you see Guess/etc. initially jump on the original poster of this thread (poor guy ) and delete his post because he was asking about Pinstack? He is/was a Pinstack user and was just wondering why it wouldn't come up. Post the same thing on Pinstack and it'll be gone in an hour.

==
(1)
http://blackberryforums.pinstack.com...RID%3A11&hl=en
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:12 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Good point. Basically makes the case that Blackberryforums.com could easily be confused for a RIM blackberry website. Esp sincw RIM already has sites such are blackberrypearl.com, blackberryforums.com it a good point thanks.

However, it would be impossible for you to justify why BBF should have the sole right to the use of the word "Blackberry" to describe forums. This site needed a name instead description for a domain name.

Trying to intimidate anyone on those grounds will turn them against supporting this site esp since only flaming threads are kept open.

If you started a site called dellforums.com and another site had a domain called dellforums.notebooks.com, hpforums.notebooks.com. Who do you think Dell may some day come after as customers get confused about which site is official support.


Here's a good read on the nasty habit of trademark domain name inclusion:
Cut and paste to browser:
forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=528091

Also here a clear read about BBF's violation of RIM's trademark and also that subdomains are not viewed as violations:
netatty.com/trade.html

We humans if we attack anyone like this they aren't always going to roll over.

Last edited by cp6169 : 02-26-2007 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:22 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I guess BlackBerryCool and the rest fall into this argument.

The difference is pinstack.blackberryforums.com (or is it blackberryforums.pinstack.com) is playing off of BlackBerryforums (which you can't/won't admit) and not just the BlackBerry name.

My company is involved in domain name litigation all the time. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't.

In any event, you aren't being censored here. And Hayden definitely believes in that stack.
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Old 02-26-2007, 03:38 AM   #48 (permalink)
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That would be for you guys to workout. However, a sub domain simply describes the content of that area of a site in this case "Blackberry Forums". It's not PinStack's fault you chose RIM's trademark name in this context and so it would be ludicrous and seem to be taken as contentious to say only this site has the right to describe it's content even though in our case it's clearly being described as a sub area of a site that operates under the name "pinstack".

Anyway, this has gone it's full breath. The bottom line is IMO both "Blackberry forums" are cool and its sad that a fight was picked that now prevents both parties from supporting and enhancing each other.

Last edited by cp6169 : 02-26-2007 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 02-26-2007, 05:11 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Off you go, then. And you still never explained what a Pinstack is.
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Old 02-26-2007, 05:59 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBlackBerry
Off you go, then. And you still never explained what a Pinstack is.
Sorry about that.

" PinStack is a free Internet based forum community for BlackBerry user support...

PIN [. pin] noun - Each BlackBerry device has a unique PIN (Personal identification number), like every phone line has a unique phone number. PINs are up to 8 characters long e.g. 20202020. Users can send messages directly PIN-to-PIN.

Stack [. stack] verb - A pile of things in large number more or less neatly arranged one on top of another. In this case stacks of BlackBerry (PIN) users."

See you guys around. Happy BB thumbin'
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