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Old 10-01-2004, 04:10 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default PUSH through IMAP IDLE?

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Just ordered my 7100 today and I was wondering if we can use IMAP IDLE command to push email to the phone? I did not sign up for the BB plan with TMO, but I have GPRS so I should be able to maintain a connection to my IMAP server to get my mail pushed to me.

Has anyone done this yet?

Also, does the IMAP client let one view their saved IMAP folders?

Thanks
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Old 10-01-2004, 09:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The 7100t HAS NO EMAIL CLIENT.

You would be much happier with a Treo 600/650 I think.

Or even a SideKick II.
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:17 AM   #3 (permalink)
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oh no crap! Yes, then I would be much happier. I will try and cancel my order.


Thanks
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Anything to help!

The way that a BlackBerry device works is fundementally different from what most people are used to.
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:47 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Actually, you can make IMAP work with a BES server, but you need to get BES Hosting that supports it. It's the cheapest way to get BES, about $10 per month to purchase BES Hosting and a Microsoft Exchange email mailbox address at http://www.myblackberry.us

Before buying the Treo, please make sure you educate yourself on the advantages vs disadvantages of the Treo. You might quickly end up being willing to pay more once balancing out the advantages. It depends on what you are ultimately after.

Secondly, THERE ARE THIRD PARTY EMAIL CLIENTS for the cellphone-based BlackBerry (but you still need to pay for the BlackBerry plan and some of these requires MDS, which begin at about $10 per month to enable the TCP/IP POP connections directly from the BlackBerry.). It's called Reqwireless Emailviewer, there's Hotviewer as well (HOTMAIL client)

Sempai, it may be true that Treo600 may make this person happier in particular but there were workarounds you did not know about. Please be careful. Please do not do it again without first providing the extra information I just gave. There are tradeoffs yes. Thank You.

My 7280 with BlackBerryOS 4.0 has categories, has the same email folder tree as Microsoft Exchange (Select folder feature), and it is my own opinion that 4.0 OS now has a superior PIM to both my old Palm and my iPaq 4155 now the PIM features is parity and I am able to enter PIM data faster with the thumb keyboard.

For more information about BES Hosting, or Email Methods, and Blackberry vs. Treo, please see my BlackBerry FAQ.
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
Actually, you can make IMAP work with a BES server, but you need to get BES Hosting that supports it. It's the cheapest way to get BES, about $10 per month to purchase BES Hosting and a Microsoft Exchange email mailbox address at http://www.myblackberry.us

Before buying the Treo, please make sure you educate yourself on the advantages vs disadvantages of the Treo. You might quickly end up being willing to pay more once balancing out the advantages. It depends on what you are ultimately after.

Secondly, THERE ARE THIRD PARTY EMAIL CLIENTS for the cellphone-based BlackBerry (but you still need to pay for the BlackBerry plan and some of these requires MDS, which begin at about $10 per month to enable the TCP/IP POP connections directly from the BlackBerry.). It's called Reqwireless Emailviewer, there's Hotviewer as well (HOTMAIL client)

Sempai, it may be true that Treo600 may make this person happier in particular but there were workarounds you did not know about. Please be careful. Please do not do it again without first providing the extra information I just gave. There are tradeoffs yes. Thank You.

My 7280 with BlackBerryOS 4.0 has categories, has the same email folder tree as Microsoft Exchange (Select folder feature), and it is my own opinion that 4.0 OS now has a superior PIM to both my old Palm and my iPaq 4155 now the PIM features is parity and I am able to enter PIM data faster with the thumb keyboard.

For more information about BES Hosting, or Email Methods, and Blackberry vs. Treo, please see my BlackBerry FAQ.
Indeed, thanks for the extra input. This is the first time with a BB. I am still a little surprised that there is no email client. I read that is does support IMAP with the default BB 7100. If it does indeed support IMAP IDLE then I can get my own push from my mail server. If this is completely not possible let me know. I would love to have my IMAP folders so I will try those other apps out when I get the phone.

I wont cancel my order just yet. I want to give it a chance. I just hope its not too big and heavy.

Thanks again!
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Old 10-01-2004, 11:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
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The guy wants to get IMAP email.

I'm not ever going to recommend someone jump through that many hoops and pay that many people that much money in order to read email.

You're using unreleased software on a device and that is supposed to solve someone elses' problems? Do you see why I'd recommend someone spend their money elsewhere if they want to use IMAP for a reason they didn't give?

In my opinion, you would have to be pretty hard up for using a RIM device to use a Bberry to read Hotmail or an IMAP account when there are no fewer than 15 devices that will arguably do the job much better.

The only real benefit of the Bberry is "push". Any Series 60 Symbian device will attach to an IMAP inbox and show you when a new message comes in like the original poster described.

Series 60 doesn't allow for multiple folders however, not remotely at any rate. Nokia has added Blackberry connecto to Series 40 and Series 80, only a matter of time I suppose before Series 60 and Series 90 get it.
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datafirm
Indeed, thanks for the extra input. This is the first time with a BB. I am still a little surprised that there is no email client. I read that is does support IMAP with the default BB 7100. If it does indeed support IMAP IDLE then I can get my own push from my mail server. If this is completely not possible let me know. I would love to have my IMAP folders so I will try those other apps out when I get the phone.

I wont cancel my order just yet. I want to give it a chance. I just hope its not too big and heavy.

Thanks again!
Tell me why you want IMAP and that will help someone tell you if the Bberry will work out. I guess you don't lose anything from trying it out, regardless.

It doesn't do IMAP the way you think it does. When they say it supports IMAP what they mean is that the web application that runs up there in Canada will login to your IMAP server on your behalf and forward messages to your BlackBerry.

That's it.

It doesn't sync folders. It doesn't sync period - so you can't use the actual features of IMAP that make IMAP cool. But it will let you pull messages via IMAP and zap them to your Bberry if you have your account provisioned for Blackberry data.
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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[Edit: This message was written in reply to your previous message]
Quote:
The guy wants to get IMAP email.

I'm not ever going to recommend someone jump through that many hoops and pay that many people that much money in order to read email.

You're using unreleased software on a device and that is supposed to solve someone elses' problems? Do you see why I'd recommend someone spend their money elsewhere if they want to use IMAP for a reason they didn't give?
I didn't say BlackBerryOS 4.0 is needed for IMAP. You can already get that on any BlackBerry, even your old 950. All you need to do is properly configure your BWC account such as http://www.tmobile.com/bwc ...

I only say 4.0 because some people say TREO PIM is better than BlackBerry PIM, and that may have been another reason you may have been implying that he would be happier with a TREO. Again, please see my BlackBerry FAQ's for more information about this. There are many people who rightfully say that BlackBerry PIM is CRAP... but it ain't anymore. And the 7100 already includes the 4.0-league PIM.

Quote:
In my opinion, you would have to be pretty hard up for using a RIM device to use a Bberry to read Hotmail or an IMAP account when there are no fewer than 15 devices that will arguably do the job much better.

The only real benefit of the Bberry is "push". Any Series 60 Symbian device will attach to an IMAP inbox and show you when a new message comes in like the original poster described.
BlackBerry can attach to an IMAP account now. All you have to do is configure your carrier properly.

Information from BlackBerry.com on how to add an IMAP account to your BlackBerry

My point is, that I love the TREO's (they are amazing multimedia devices!) but there are more advantages to the BlackBerry than you already know.

Try out BOTH devices for a full 7 days. You'll quickly find Treo is superior at several things, yes. But you'll also see BlackBerry is superior at several things (including other things such as push email. Such as better always-on instant messaging capability in third party instant messaging software such as WebMessenger, BlackChat, IM+, 100 hours with the screen constantly, backlight off, without a standby mode, without needing a recharge, that's 24/7 Cable/DSL style nonstop true non-SMS real instant messaging connection. Try that on a TREO! Although I still find WebMessenger superiorior to the 7100 built-in SMS-powered instant messaging client that's been having complaints so far)
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sempai
Quote:
Originally Posted by datafirm
Indeed, thanks for the extra input. This is the first time with a BB. I am still a little surprised that there is no email client. I read that is does support IMAP with the default BB 7100. If it does indeed support IMAP IDLE then I can get my own push from my mail server. If this is completely not possible let me know. I would love to have my IMAP folders so I will try those other apps out when I get the phone.

I wont cancel my order just yet. I want to give it a chance. I just hope its not too big and heavy.

Thanks again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sempai
Tell me why you want IMAP and that will help someone tell you if the Bberry will work out. I guess you don't lose anything from trying it out, regardless.
I want to be able to see my replied to messages, read messages, and use the IMAP IDLE command for instant message delivery. I wanted the blackberry for the new keyboard and the jog dial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sempai
It doesn't do IMAP the way you think it does. When they say it supports IMAP what they mean is that the web application that runs up there in Canada will login to your IMAP server on your behalf and forward messages to your BlackBerry.

That's it.

It doesn't sync folders. It doesn't sync period - so you can't use the actual features of IMAP that make IMAP cool. But it will let you pull messages via IMAP and zap them to your Bberry if you have your account provisioned for Blackberry data.
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
Quote:
The guy wants to get IMAP email.

I'm not ever going to recommend someone jump through that many hoops and pay that many people that much money in order to read email.

You're using unreleased software on a device and that is supposed to solve someone elses' problems? Do you see why I'd recommend someone spend their money elsewhere if they want to use IMAP for a reason they didn't give?
I didn't say BlackBerryOS 4.0 is needed for IMAP. You can already get that on any BlackBerry, even your old 950. All you need to do is properly configure your BWC account such as http://www.tmobile.com/bwc ...

I only say 4.0 because some people say TREO PIM is better than BlackBerry PIM, and that may have been another reason you may have been implying that he would be happier with a TREO. Again, please see my BlackBerry FAQ's for more information about this. There are many people who rightfully say that BlackBerry PIM is CRAP... but it ain't anymore. And the 7100 already includes the 4.0-league PIM.

Quote:
In my opinion, you would have to be pretty hard up for using a RIM device to use a Bberry to read Hotmail or an IMAP account when there are no fewer than 15 devices that will arguably do the job much better.

The only real benefit of the Bberry is "push". Any Series 60 Symbian device will attach to an IMAP inbox and show you when a new message comes in like the original poster described.
BlackBerry can attach to an IMAP account now. All you have to do is configure your carrier properly.

Information from BlackBerry.com on how to add an IMAP account to your BlackBerry
I dont want to hook it into my IMAP account, although that will be what is needed if I cannot get IMAP IDLE support or an IMAP reader.

I am still going to try out my phone, I must say that I am surprised, but I am sure others are not.

BTW can one upgrade the OS on this phone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
My point is, that I love the TREO's (they are amazing multimedia devices!) but there are more advantages to the BlackBerry than you already know.

Try out BOTH devices for a full 7 days. You'll quickly find Treo is superior at several things, yes. But you'll also see BlackBerry is superior at several things (including other things such as push email. Such as better always-on instant messaging capability in third party instant messaging software such as WebMessenger, BlackChat, IM+, 100 hours with the screen constantly, backlight off, without needing a recharge, that's 24/7 Cable/DSL style nonstop true non-SMS real instant messaging connection. Try that on a TREO!)
Are these things that require a BB account through TMO?
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:28 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I should emphasize that you must have a BlackBerry plan on any BlackBerry -- if you are to have a good chance of being happier with it than a Treo. Because it not possible to do IMAP email delivery without a BlackBerry plan.

Also, the 7100 instant messaging client uses the SMS method of transmitting messages, although that is not my preferred way. But it could be good enough for your needs.

If this is a decision made on a price basis for a service plan, owning a Treo may be cheaper (i.e. avoiding paying for a BlackBerry plan), but this is negetated because a Treo phone is more expensive than a 7100 BlackBerry. However, if you get a huge discount.

Yes you can upgrade the BlackBerryOS on a 7100 when RIM releases a newer operating system. Operating system releases are not frequent but you can expect RIM to release one within a few months for the 7100.

I don't know if the 7100 will work with generic data (third party software that does TCP/IP) without a BlackBerry plan, but this does not work on other models of BlackBerries. The 7100 supports TCP/IP connections.
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
I should emphasize that you must have a BlackBerry plan on any BlackBerry -- if you are to have a good chance of being happier with it than a Treo. Because it not possible to do IMAP email delivery without a BlackBerry plan.

Also, the 7100 instant messaging client uses the SMS method of transmitting messages, although that is not my preferred way. But it could be good enough for your needs.

If this is a decision made on a price basis for a service plan, owning a Treo may be cheaper (i.e. avoiding paying for a BlackBerry plan), but this is negetated because a Treo phone is more expensive than a 7100 BlackBerry. However, if you get a huge discount.

Yes you can upgrade the BlackBerryOS on a 7100 when RIM releases a newer operating system. Operating system releases are not frequent but you can expect RIM to release one within a few months for the 7100.

I don't know if the 7100 will work with generic data (third party software that does TCP/IP) without a BlackBerry plan, but this does not work on other models of BlackBerries. The 7100 supports TCP/IP connections.
Thanks for the clarifications RE SMS and needing a Blackberry plan. I agree that the SMS type delivery is odd. Is this transparent to all users? I assume this also counts against your SMS messages. You do not get unlimited SMS with the TMO plans.

The 7100 is starting to look a little dull in my eyes.

Pricing is no concern for me. I just want a BT phone with IMAP capabilities, small form factor and qwerty (or the likes) keyboard, ability to use as a modem (which I read may not be possible with the 7100).


Thanks!!
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Old 10-01-2004, 12:45 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If you want the best possible instant messaging, purchase a third party client and install it on the 7100. It will do a direct TCP/IP connection instead. My current favourite is WebMessenger from www.webmessenger.com .... It works very well on my Rogers 7280.

It is not possible right now to use the 7100 as a modem right now yet. The capability is there in the hardware but not in software. As you may have already read, RIM is beta testing a modem feature for future deployment on certain models, but there is no release date -- it can be easily be next year. RIM has a history of not enabling features for a long time, so you may want to be aware of that. And who knows, if T-Mobile wants to offer the modem feature -- as that can add heavy usage to unlimited data plans.

The Treo works as an external modem using the PDANet program. That's something you can use today. Treo does not have Bluetooth without a Bluetooth card though. (Unless you want to wait for the Treo 650)

Summarization (for today)
Multimedia - Treo wins
Email - BlackBerry wins
External modem - Treo wins
Instant Messaging - BlackBerry wins

Now you can make an informed decision based on preferences! :D You may need to try both devices out to see which one is more comfortable, though, if you're still divided.
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
If you want the best possible instant messaging, purchase a third party client and install it on the 7100. It will do a direct TCP/IP connection instead. My current favourite is WebMessenger from www.webmessenger.com .... It works very well on my Rogers 7280.

It is not possible right now to use the 7100 as a modem right now yet. The capability is there in the hardware but not in software. As you may have already read, RIM is beta testing a modem feature for future deployment on certain models, but there is no release date -- it can be easily be next year. RIM has a history of not enabling features for a long time, so you may want to be aware of that. And who knows, if T-Mobile wants to offer the modem feature -- as that can add heavy usage to unlimited data plans.

The Treo works as an external modem using the PDANet program. That's something you can use today. Treo does not have Bluetooth without a Bluetooth card though. (Unless you want to wait for the Treo 650)

Summarization (for today)
Multimedia - Treo wins
Email - BlackBerry wins
External modem - Treo wins
Instant Messaging - BlackBerry wins

Now you can make an informed decision based on preferences! :D You may need to try both devices out to see which one is more comfortable, though, if you're still divided.
Thanks, although I think any other phone with an IMAP client with IMAP IDLE support will win for me over BB "push". Since its the same thing and not proprietary and expensive.

BT modem, I currently use a T39m and it works wonders for a simple phone with great reception and BT. TMO should have no problems with modem use as lots of their phones currently support it.

Thanks for the breakdown. Multimedia is of no use for me. Perhaps neither phone is for me. The most perfect phone I have ever owned is still my Ericsson T39m!!

Regards
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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IMAP IDLE will be unreliable on almost any cellphone if you try to write your own client:

1. IP address can change in celltower changes.
2. Going in and out of coverage can cause re-obtaining of new IP address.
3. Most cell carriers have a connection timeout, so your IMAP connection can be closed after 120 seconds.

That's why BlackBerry uses their system; it works around these kinds of things. One possibility is Nextel, which allows static IP addresses on their phones.

If you want reliable wireless email that doesn't hang, doesn't get stuck, keeps successfully retrying, doesn't timeout, doesn't display error messages, just works when you want it to, guaranteed reliability, long battery life without the overhead of re-handshaking on every celltower change, IP address change, and compensates for fluctuating IP addresses, you need a push mail server such as BlackBerry or Goodlink or another mobile-friendly system. That costs extra money, and that is why BlackBerry plans are more expensive than other phones, due to the additional server infrastructure.

You can manually check email reliably on a Treo, but you cannot have reliable push email without a BlackBerry plan or a Goodlink plan or another dedicated pushmail system. Plain IMAP doesn't cut it, unfortunately, in a mobile environment with frequent momentary disconnects and IP address changes...

Industry standard is not necessarily best on a wireless device... That's why IMAP is moved to the BWC server, not IMAP directly on the device.

A technically minded person can write your own Linux or Windows Server software that simulates IMAP IDLE support and forwards new messages to the direct push-email address.
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
IMAP IDLE will be unreliable on almost any cellphone if you try to write your own client:

1. IP address can change in celltower changes.
2. Going in and out of coverage can cause re-obtaining of new IP address.
3. Most cell carriers have a connection timeout, so your IMAP connection can be closed after 120 seconds.

That's why BlackBerry uses their system; it works around these kinds of things. One possibility is Nextel, which allows static IP addresses on their phones.

If you want reliable wireless email that doesn't hang, doesn't get stuck, keeps successfully retrying, doesn't display error messages, just works when you want it to, guaranteed reliability, long battery life without the overhead of re-handshaking on every celltower change, IP address change, and compensates for fluctuating IP addresses, you need a push mail server such as BlackBerry or Goodlink or another mobile-friendly system. That costs extra money, and that is why BlackBerry plans are more expensive than other phones, due to the additional server infrastructure.

Industry standard is not necessarily best on a wireless device... That's why IMAP is moved to the BWC, not IMAP directly on the device.
And that is why I am going to give it a shot!!
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:50 PM   #18 (permalink)
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PS.... If you want the ultimate.... You can already get wireless 2-way synchronization on all folders between an Exchange-powered IMAP server, but you must use Blackberry Enterprise Server to gain this 2-way wireless email synchronization to BlackBerry.

It's even more expensive than just having a BlackBerry plan -- you also have to pay for Blackberry Enterprise Server on top of it all! But this is the Mercedes of wireless email.

If you want wireless bidirectional email synchronization, you're limited to few choices of servers, basically Exchange is your only choice if you want the most inexpensive $10-to-$25-per-month wireless email synchronization (Exchange/BES/MDS hosting by Mailstreet or MyBlackberry, etc). Not many people like Exchange, because it's proprietary though.

(Granted, you can use Goodlink on a TREO 600, but that's more expensive for a single user, unfortunately)
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:53 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
PS.... If you want the ultimate.... You can already get wireless 2-way synchronization on all folders between an Exchange-powered IMAP server, but you must use Blackberry Enterprise Server to gain this 2-way wireless email synchronization to BlackBerry.

It's even more expensive than just having a BlackBerry plan -- you also have to pay for Blackberry Enterprise Server on top of it all! But this is the Mercedes of wireless email.

(Granted, you can use Goodlink on a TREO 600, but that's more expensive for a single user, unfortunately)
Yeah, I use Cyrus IMAPd 2.3. There may be a way to go about it though. I think I will just give the BB a shot.

TMO seems to be offering a 19.99 unlimited BB plan for business users. Does that seem like a good deal?

Otherwise I can get an external client for the 7100 and poll every 30 mins or so?
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Old 10-01-2004, 01:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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People find the BlackBerry email to be so good, they don't even bother installing third party email clients. So you rarely ever see reviews about third party email software. But they exist and work. The best ones are Reqwireless from www.reqwireless.com at this time.

I think your best choices are either:

(1) Easiest: Configuring your BWC to poll your IMAP server. You will get new messages every 15 minutes.

(2) Automatic forwarding a CC: to your BlackBerry push address, that's how I do it. My BlackBerry then acts like a great wireless email notifier. Whenever my BlackBerry vibrates, I know I have new email waiting for me, and I can look at its screen pager-style (message displayed right away SMS/pager style after pulling out of holster) or reply to the message from my desktop instead. And your BlackBerry vibrates within 4-10 seconds of somebody clicking SEND to your email address, no need to check email, it's already downloaded to your BlackBerry realtime.
__________________
Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
Author of XMPP extension XEP-0301:
www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0301.html - specification
www.realjabber.org - open source
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