Crossposted from another forum. Excellent reading material for GPS software makers. As a software developer of BlackBerries experienced in JDE 4.2 GPS/File API's, my comments probably carry more weight to GPS software makers than the average non-developer.

Not quite accurate. Apps have to be in main memory, but data can be on the memory card.

The GPS application (which can be the same size as today apps) can be in memory, but the GPS application can read from the memory card instead of over the wireless network.

Rove Mobile File Manager from Rove Mobile - Network Administration and Remote Access is a third-party "File Explorer" for BlackBerry memory cards, is living proof that third-party applications can read & write to memory cards. I am a registered user. Open, Move, Delete, Rename, Create Folder, Edit (text files), etc. It is even a FTP and WEBDAV client too -- I can download and upload files from BlackBerry directly to/from the memory card!

And there are third party picture and music software that can play media off the memory card.

Nothing is stopping the developers of GPS software from creating software that can read directly from a BlackBerry memory card. I think some of them are just not seeing high profits yet because of market saturation & the fact that Google Maps / BBMaps are free and support GPS. For the price of "free", they are really good map software.

Because of the excellent "freebie" map software, the GPS software makers need to compete with the freebie software. Subscription based software can be very profitable, but again, there is starting to become market saturation because so many other BlackBerry users (like me) refuse to pay for subscription software. I think they can make MUCH more money if they offered a $100 software package that includes North American maps on a 2GB MicroSD card. This won't cannibalize the subscription market, but gain new users like me. Sign me up - I'd pay. At the moment, I refuse to pay for subscriber services and will get a TomTom or Nuvi device, unless I can turn my BlackBerry into the equivalent of an offline TomTom or Nuvi that I happen to carry all the time. You can bet that the profit margin is probably bigger on the software package, due to device manufacture costs especially with the massive price drops on standalone GPS units lately.

This may provide an incentive for one daring GPS company to release SD-memory-card based maps for GSM-based BlackBerries. I confirm that it can be done, they just need to be coaxed to actually do so. If you're an employee of a GPS company, please show this message to your boss. Right now, please. Find a programmer, pay them a couple month's salary, and you'll have pretty fast ROI.

Developer departments of GPS companies -- It's most likely fairly minor programming modifications to pre-existing OTA-map-download software, by moving the map cache from main BlackBerry memory (which is slow performing flash memory) to the SD card memory (on a high quality SDMicro, it can actually be faster performing flash memory), increasing the cache to 2 gigabytes and pre-filling it with entire North America, doing some performance optimizations to read a large database efficiently, then putting the cache data file on a disc (or download) to sell to BlackBerry customers who want offline map capability. Basically, the cache turns into a permanent cache that's prefilled with entire North America. That's only like 2 weeks of software development time, no? Even if parts of the computer code needs to be rebased/rewritten, it probably only needs to take more than 2 extra months at the most.

Marketing departments of GPS companies -- there are ways to market it. "NOW - GPS Navigation on your BlackBerry even while you're out of network coverage!"

I currently make a living as a mobile software developer (specializing in BlackBerry/WindowsMobile) and can confirm that this is possible with JDE 4.2 Java API's. Although currently on a contract at the moment, I can say that if one of them hired/contracted me, I can certainly improve the software and make it work off a memory card. I know it wouldn't work offline with Verizon units, but it definitely would work offline on 8110's, 8310's and 8800's even out of coverage. You don't even need a SIM card or even be subscribed to phone service! All the GPS-capable GSM-based BlackBerries can do GPS in offline. Some of them are just plain-jane SirfStarIII GPS chips.

So, when can we expect your new GPS mapping app there, Mr. Rejhon?

I hope that will be possible soon. Expecially when it uses vectors.

Mark,

The biggest obstacle for a device-based GPS software right now is the current 2gig limit on the MicroSD support. Unlike other devices where the storage card is readily accessible, the BB is a pain. Once we move to larger cards, then I'd see a market for flat fee, downloadable data.

The price, other than data fee, is not different. I have used both 'on device' and subscription units, and if you want to keep current maps, both will run you about $100/year.

I woul actually see a great markt for a choice between a 'buy once' or a subscription with maps on SD card. So that you would have choice of paying for the maps whenever you felt the need for new maps, or getting the 2GB once, and then being able to download updates as they become available, either to your desktop or OTA.

Then the BB would really be the ultimate device.

The developers of AmazeGPS are working on a version where you can download maps to an SD card.

Would this approach get around the software lock on the 8830 GPS hardware that Verizon uses?

Not looking for a flame war, only technical information.

No, this only gets around the requirement for needing cell coverage to download the maps. GPS will still be disabled.

(PS Mark - I cannot quote the beginning of a sentence or paragraph with the word 'because' - thats the only thing I remembered of english classes, besides punctuation, hehe).

I'm in TOTAL agreement! I thought I was alone!

Not All providers allow for true unlimited data. I think we'll begin to see corporations cut back on wireless account spending. Most business users here in Canada would rather use that $65/mth on Rogers Wireless (on top of voice calls) allotment for 1GB of data cap for MDS Corporate application usuage; rather than GPS data and such for mapping.

In no way do I blame company's of current charge monthly fee for GPS data - in a cloud-based service (its a service not a product in my mind). However, we're beginning to see more and more applications that have been designed to NEED a data connection to give current information; even if it isn't realtime. For example weather applications - having to update every 5mins > 1hr. Do I really need to see how the weather is going to change in the same city, in increments of 5-10 degrees celcius? How often does anyone need to see the same days' weather report - weather is pretty accurate day to day EVEN if a snow storm is on-route; rarely does it drastically change direction where you'd need to be informed every hour.

Personally, I'd like to have a GPS mapping application on a BlackBerry that allows me to download my countries maps & save directly to the MicroSD card for local information retrieval. I'd pay $100CAN up front. Heck I'd pay $30CAN up front for just having Ontario's local maps. Allow me to use $10/mth subscription for Turn by Turn visual/voice guided navigation with traffic jam avoidance. This could drastically change business.

I believe the source of maps shouldn't be too hard to find, its coding to use off the MicroSD card in a timely fashion and not consume RAM on the BB HH.

4Gb has been the current limit for quite some time (since 4.2.1 came out a year ago.) 8Gb is supported on 4.3 and higher devices.

Even so, there's no technical limitation to putting partial maps on 2GB. Plus, the database (essentially a permanent map cache) could be split into multiple files, each under 2GB, to cover a specific region of North America.

But 4GB cards are still hard to find. 2 and 6 are all over the place. I fing it hard to order something like a 4GB card from an online vendor where the shipping will be almost as much as the card. Hopefuly, 8GB cards will be widely available by the time 4.3 rolls around.

I'm not arguing the technical feasibility. But once yu have your maps loaded, there is not much room left for other media files. Once OS 4.3 comes out, I'll happily put in an 8GB card and download the 2GB of map data to store on it.

I never had trouble finding 4Gb cards. Here's just one:

Amazon.com: Used and New: Sandisk 4GB MicroSDHC Memory Card with SD Adapter (BULK Packaging)

Didn't the older versions of TomTom ship on a 1GB card? Version 5 I think. I know TomTom6 had a complete NOAM file (USA and Canada) in one ginormous file, but that was slightly over the 1GB size. And slow as hell on the Treo.

I'd like to see onboard maps, too. So long as the app isn't super slow.

20%+ shipping. and most of those places will not ship to Canada. It's hard to find 4GB in brick and mortar places.

Amazon does, that's where I got mine. At that time it was $75 US, it's come down a lot since then. USPS (as opposed to Fedex/UPS) is the way to go.

As for Mark's post, I agree 100%. As I posted here back in August http://www.blackberryforums.com/gps-...tml#post639521 I know that SD card based GPS programs are out there, I had one for my Nokia E62. Sure, data service based GPS apps have some advantages but 1) I hate paying monthly fees, and 2) I hate using data (esp. on limited data plans).

I finally went with Wayfinder 7 to avoid monthly fees but would snap up at SD card based solution in a second. Personally, I think subscription services and data service based GPS is a money grab, but I guess that's another topic.

This is awesome news, i was thinking why something like this wasn't available or even possible. Im very excited to see this come to my memory card.

Data service based can be a money grab. Subscription, as they are priced today, are no more expensive than pay-once if you intend to update your maps yearly. I'd like a combination.

I'd love to load all of NA on the SD card, and everytime I use the GPS, it checks back to a central server to make sure that I have the latest maps for that region, and downloads new ones as needed.

I'm using trek to do it now, but really isnt that good because i have to download maps individually and all that, and no real support for directions.

Hope you guys can make something better.

Hello Mark,

Is there a BB specific API that will allow what you're trying to accomplish listed here?

RIM Device Java Library

Thanks.

I finally read elsewhere, the first reason that makes sense to me as to why software vendors/authors of major GPS applications are going the route of server-based navigation software instead of SD-storage based maps where the client does not use data services...

Software piracy.

It had not occurred to me. I guess if GPS stand-alone applications were written, they can then be "cracked" (e.g. if they use an activation key or whatnot) and then downloaded from torrent sites and used by anyone.

While I don't like using data over using maps stored on an SD card, and even though I still lean towards the " dems munny-grubbin' varmints" theory, this, at least makes sense and I can understand.

4GB sandisk microSD on Ebay. Paid 20.00 with shipping.

I just saw an 8GB Micro on eBay for $45, and would you believe that the seller was charging $30 for shipping. Sheesh. I mean....buy a bubble picture mailer...only cost about $2, and what's shipping for something that small....$1.50 - $2.50 max. Haha.

That makes sense for Palm and Windows Mobile platforms, but is not an issue on the BlackBerry platform where devices are uniquely identified by PIN.

And a software developer with any sort of grasp on reality has to anticipate a certain percentage of loss through piracy, though all strive to minimize that number as much as possible (read Windows Genuine Advantage, etc.).

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your end of the stick), it is VERY hard to reverse engineer BlackBerry applications at this time, learning from other applications, and getting around trials, creating keygens and what not are near impossible. So while the maps may be fair game as they are on the memory card, the actual software itself would probably be just fine authenticating the PIN number. Although I would anticipate they allow offline activation since this would be perfect for those who have a BlackBerry without data.

And SD-based Mapping programs, such as Street Atlas USA, are prevalent in WM5. I am already regretting that my company forced me to change to a Blackberry from a Treo.

Easy, if you're the company that owns source code to the GPS software. This assumes OS 4.2 and later devices, but all 8XXX devices (even old 8700) can be upgraded to OS 4.2.

net.rim.device.api.io.file
RIM Device Java Library: Package net.rim.device.api.io.file

javax.microedition.io.file
RIM Device Java Library: Package javax.microedition.io.file

FileConnection
RIM Device Java Library: Interface FileConnection

Specifically, FileConnection can be used in lieu of HttpConnection -- have a big database of map on the SD card (i.e. an encrypted version of what's stored on the web server -- just stored on the SD card instead). Encrypt them if desired, to the BlackBerry PIN, and the piracy problem is solved. Can even be made much more secure than Windows Mobile, it just have to be secured in a different way than it is on Windows Mobile. Yes, maybe an Internet connection to authenticate the permission to access GPS maps -- but that's easy, when implemented properly. There are Stream object's that allow files to be read like an HTTP stream, one could even use the same map database format, if they wished.

Modern BlackBerry units have a filesystem, complete with folder structure, files and all -- it's not yesterday's BlackBerry where RIM prevented you from being able to operate a filesystem complete with gigabytes worth of files that you can read/write.

Tsk, tsk. GPS companies still haven't caught on. I'm still waiting!

Link correction...rovemobile.com

Link: Rove Mobile - Network Administration and Remote Access

;)

Fixed.

wow this would be so cool, I'm currently paying $5 a month to Mapquest and I'm pretty happy but I'd rather use the SD version of the Maps, you're always connected regardless of coverage is this correct, if so, this would rock.

Is this how Nokia Maps 2.0 works, download maps and then use the A-Gps to fix your position and track

Waiting to see what is being done ... this would be a great program!

I'm going to disagree.

I'm a reporter to reporters, and in that role, I've recently reviewed AT&T Navigator (aka TeleNav 5.5), MapQuest Navigator, Garmin Mobile and several other offerings. With the single possible exception of display size, I think these BB navigators outperform dashboard units.

And a fundamental reason for that is that they don't deal with static maps.

Each one gets up-to-the-minute server-based maps for the entire planned trip corridor when travel begins, so the maps are in the handset regardless of whether or not there's any cell signal. Each one updates regularly to fetch new info about road conditions, traffic jams, etc. And the scheme is extremely reasonable in terms of a conservative amount of total data traffic making everything happen.

I also tried VZ Navigator when it was new and I hated it. With it, lose a signal and you'd lose your way. Track your path and you can't make or take calls. And there were 4-5 ways they upped your bill for using it.

This is not to undermine the importance of your discovery of these programming options - only to address that I strongly believe that stored maps are ultimately a less than optimal choice for navigation.

Well, static map option may be less than optimal, but still way better than the proclaimed "map over the air".

The whole idea of GPS is really know where you are "anytime", "anywhere". It's not "anytime IF within cell network".

Even though the routing information is cached locally, as you suggested, but what if you are way off route and out of the cached area ? What if in the middle of no where you want to look for gas station ? Be prepared.

Another reality, even though unpleasant, those map servers never update daily, in fact they only update map data according to prefixed time schedule, mostly monthly basis. So, go figure.

as many have said, static maps arent as good as live maps (when actually live, but teleatlas havent updated some of there city maps of manchester in over a year so one ways are a danger as theyv all changed since) but im usually using sat nav once im already lost and in the middle of nowhere which usually means no signal to retreive a route.
hopefully someone can make a nice hybrid that will detect, or have the option to select, which type of live/static mapping is appropriate. until then im stickin with tomtom.

False. Neither the maps, nor the POIs on these services such as Telenav are "up to the minute" and often not even up to the year or the last 2 years. The maps are on their servers, but they choose to not update them very often. There is alot of very out of date data stored on their servers. I tried it and it was very annoying to have to frequently use other methods (such as Goog411) to find addresses not in their "live, up to the minute" database.
Some of these same addresses missing from TeleNav were in the year-old static Garmin maps.

The other major failings of Telenav-like services is not being able to start using them when you are not in the cell coverage area and some of them will drop the routing if you need to take or make a phone call.
Nasty experience.

I live in italy and recently I bought a BB 8310. I have vodafone that offer for 20 euros/month the GPS program. Really I often fly to other european country and in that countries using an internet connection could be extremely expensive (1,6$/min + something for each Kb downloaded). So if someone of you can help me to find a local based GPS program I'll be extremely happy. 1 month ago I read something about a Telenav off-line product; do you have news?
Thanks a lot and best regards
matteo

Trekbuddy and Mobile Gmaps can both be used without data. But you have to first use other programs to create maps on the web, download them to your computer and then copy them to an SD card. They can be a bit hard to setup but do work.

oh. does either do route planning with directions on the downloaded maps?

I don't believe so but I've never looked for that feature. Since their maps are merely graphic information, they probably do not contain the kind of data needed to create routes.