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Old 08-22-2007, 09:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Answer: Why isn't the native GPS mapping tool available on the BlackBerry 8830

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From Verizon Wireless....


1. Why isn't the native GPS mapping tool available on the BlackBerry 8830?
The tool has not yet met our standards for performance, security and privacy.
2. Will Verizon Wireless have mapping software on the BlackBerry 8830?
Verizon Wireless is currently modifying its own location based mapping service, VZ Navigator, for the BlackBerry 8830. The plan is for VZ Navigator and certain third party GPS applications to be available for the BlackBerry 8830 this year. The Blackberry is currently GPS capable to support Enhanced 911 Phase 2 automatic location identification.

3. Why didn't Verizon Wireless use the native GPS service on the device at least until your service was tested and ready for use?

The GPS service that is native to the Global BlackBerry does not have the level of security, protection or performance that Verizon Wireless requires (security precautions are important to prevent unintended use or misuse of location data). From a performance perspective, Verizon Wireless expects its network assisted approach to provide more accurate and faster location information, and better performance indoors and in dense urban areas.

4. Is it true that the reason Verizon Wireless doesn't allow the use of the native GPS service on the BlackBerry because the company won't make money if customers use the BlackBerry service?

While it is certainly true that we receive revenue from Verizon Wireless applications that we may not receive from native GPS solutions, it is also true that when our brand is associated with a device or service, it needs to meet our standards for high quality and secure service. The GPS service that is native to the Global BlackBerry has not been approved for the level of security, protection or performance that Verizon Wireless requires.

5. Why don't other carriers have issues with the GPS service from RIM?
We can't speak for other carriers but Verizon Wireless takes a very conservative approach to protecting customers privacy. Any service offered by Verizon Wireless must pass testing and have the necessary security to protect customers from unintended identification.

6. This phone was advertised as having GPS but I now find that it does not because Verizon Wireless disabled it?
Verizon Wireless is very careful to only advertise the features and services available on the devices it sells to ensure that customers get what they want and expect when they purchase a new device. None of the Verizon Wireless advertising on this device referenced mapping tools. Any service offered by Verizon Wireless must pass testing and have the necessary security to protect customers from unintended identification. The current GPS service does not currently meet our security requirements.

7. For some other carriers, Blackberry Maps, Google Maps, Telnav, etc. have access to the GPS functionality in the 8800. Why wouldn't your company allow this type of service?

Verizon Wireless supports Assisted GPS (AGPS) rather than stand-alone GPS like some others use. AGPS uses the Verizon Wireless Network to provide more accurate, faster location information, in addition to better navigation performance indoors and in dense urban areas. At launch, we elected not to implement other applications because of the overall impact they could have on the devices performance.

8. How is the Verizon Wireless GPS service secure?
Our location based service requires customers to choose to be identified by a GPS service before the users location is shared. It is the best way to protect customers and minimize the potential for "man in the middle" attacks. The Verizon Wireless Location Service encrypts the customer location information in the device before transmitting it to the network. Verizon Wireless requires all location requests be authenticated before the handset or network can obtain a customers location information.

9. What do I do for GPS service now since Verizon Wireless hasn't approved any service? I'm unhappy and want my money back.

While we respect your request, we would encourage you to be patient for our updates to the BlackBerry 8830, which will support several options for GPS. The BlackBerry 8830 is a great device that allows customers to stay in touch while traveling in over 170 countries for voice service and 90 countries for email. Should you wish to return your device, the Verizon Wireless Worry Free Guarantee allows customers 30 days to be completely satisfied with their service or they get their money back. Please call *611 on your Verizon Wireless phone to discuss options based on your individual circumstances.
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Interesting info.

Moved to GPS/Mapping forum
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:03 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Wirelessly posted (Breaking Ball: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0) BlackBerry8300/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Can you please post a link to the source of your post?

There's good info in there, however it's nothing but unsubstantiated fiction unless you can identify the official source as being Verizon Wireless.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:11 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default GPS Enabled on Moto Q and Disabled on 8830

The new Motorola Q 9m has finally been released today by Verizon. I can't believe that they left the sGPS enabled on this phone and disabled it on the 8830. That stupid statement that Verizon's exec made about GPS damaging Verizon's network is baloney. If Verizon really thought that GPS could hurt their Network then they probably would have disabled it on the Moto Q as well. Maybe Motorola told them to take a walk when Verizon asked for it to be disabled. Come on Rim, start standing up for yourself. When will Verizon stop lying to its customers?
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilegeek View Post
The new Motorola Q 9m has finally been released today by Verizon. I can't believe that they left the sGPS enabled on this phone and disabled it on the 8830. That stupid statement that Verizon's exec made about GPS damaging Verizon's network is baloney. If Verizon really thought that GPS could hurt their Network then they probably would have disabled it on the Moto Q as well. Maybe Motorola told them to take a walk when Verizon asked for it to be disabled. Come on Rim, start standing up for yourself. When will Verizon stop lying to its customers?
This alone shows that the "security concerns" are complete BS! What freaking security issues? The location is not transported across the network. The phone requests GPS vectors and then overlays that info on top of a map it downloads from RIM's servers (in the case of Blackberry Maps). Anyone who belive this BS is either stupid or doesn't know how to properly formulate a question to these "trained response monkeys" from VZW so that you trap them in their own lies.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The only thing I can think of is there are some apps that allow other BB users to track your locataion from your built in GPS. It's necessary to give access though to the tracker, so I don't if that could be circumvented. And it seems both BB's have to have the app. Possible that's what they're concerned about. My $.02 and only a guess.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:31 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Will VZ Navigator work worldwide? Not much use on a global phone if it does not.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjayson View Post
Will VZ Navigator work worldwide? Not much use on a global phone if it does not.
I'm still trying to figure out what GPS has to do with the Verizon 8830 being a "world phone." "World phone" simply means that it has the international GSM radio necessary outside North America. Historically, Verizon hasn't had phones that would work this way.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRSCCivic98 View Post
This alone shows that the "security concerns" are complete BS! What freaking security issues? The location is not transported across the network. The phone requests GPS vectors and then overlays that info on top of a map it downloads from RIM's servers (in the case of Blackberry Maps). Anyone who belive this BS is either stupid or doesn't know how to properly formulate a question to these "trained response monkeys" from VZW so that you trap them in their own lies.
I don't consider myself stupid (but I suppose neither to most stupid people ). However, I simply don't know enough about how GPS tracking is implemented in smartphones to know what is BS and what is not.

The fact that the new Q has GPS enable could mean that Verizon is simply blowing smoke up our a$$ regarding the 8830 - or it could simply mean that the Q simply has a different (and more "secure" per Verizon's security standards) implementation of GPS tracking.

So the $64000 question becomes "If you're doing this because of security concerns, why is GPS enabled on the new Motorola Q?" The OP didn't ask this question because s/he presumably didn't know about the new Q. If anyone here can ask someone "in the know" at Verizon this question, I'd LOVE to hear the answer.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:21 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This has been beaten to death about 50 times now. the situation is extremely clear now and its up to Verizon to get Navigator on the 8830 to work. No amount of whining or reasoning is going to change that.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Not World but International

The question of if the Verizon/CELLCO PARTNERSHIP 8830 phone will have it's GPS operating outside of the United States is based on how the phone is advertised. The phone is advertised under International Services in the Business section of the VZW website. One would assume that, because it is advertised for international operation, the GPS system (whatever or however) would operate outside of the United States. This has been my position since I got my phone. The GPS service outside of the United States may be through vodafone and I may have to pay for it but it should work.

I for one, am more concerned about becoming lost in a foreign country than in the United States. At least here most of the natives speak English.

One last comment that concerns the initial post. If a VZW employee did actually say or write what is posted then I would strongly suggest that the DEA turn the drug dogs loose in their building.

Last edited by TBOLTRAM : 08-23-2007 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Correction
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankWheezy View Post
From Verizon Wireless....


1. Why isn't the native GPS mapping tool available on the BlackBerry 8830?
The tool has not yet met our standards for performance, security and privacy.
2. Will Verizon Wireless have mapping software on the BlackBerry 8830?
Verizon Wireless is currently modifying its own location based mapping service, VZ Navigator, for the BlackBerry 8830. The plan is for VZ Navigator and certain third party GPS applications to be available for the BlackBerry 8830 this year. The Blackberry is currently GPS capable to support Enhanced 911 Phase 2 automatic location identification.

3. Why didn't Verizon Wireless use the native GPS service on the device at least until your service was tested and ready for use?

The GPS service that is native to the Global BlackBerry does not have the level of security, protection or performance that Verizon Wireless requires (security precautions are important to prevent unintended use or misuse of location data). From a performance perspective, Verizon Wireless expects its network assisted approach to provide more accurate and faster location information, and better performance indoors and in dense urban areas.

4. Is it true that the reason Verizon Wireless doesn't allow the use of the native GPS service on the BlackBerry because the company won't make money if customers use the BlackBerry service?

While it is certainly true that we receive revenue from Verizon Wireless applications that we may not receive from native GPS solutions, it is also true that when our brand is associated with a device or service, it needs to meet our standards for high quality and secure service. The GPS service that is native to the Global BlackBerry has not been approved for the level of security, protection or performance that Verizon Wireless requires.

5. Why don't other carriers have issues with the GPS service from RIM?
We can't speak for other carriers but Verizon Wireless takes a very conservative approach to protecting customers privacy. Any service offered by Verizon Wireless must pass testing and have the necessary security to protect customers from unintended identification.

6. This phone was advertised as having GPS but I now find that it does not because Verizon Wireless disabled it?
Verizon Wireless is very careful to only advertise the features and services available on the devices it sells to ensure that customers get what they want and expect when they purchase a new device. None of the Verizon Wireless advertising on this device referenced mapping tools. Any service offered by Verizon Wireless must pass testing and have the necessary security to protect customers from unintended identification. The current GPS service does not currently meet our security requirements.

7. For some other carriers, Blackberry Maps, Google Maps, Telnav, etc. have access to the GPS functionality in the 8800. Why wouldn't your company allow this type of service?

Verizon Wireless supports Assisted GPS (AGPS) rather than stand-alone GPS like some others use. AGPS uses the Verizon Wireless Network to provide more accurate, faster location information, in addition to better navigation performance indoors and in dense urban areas. At launch, we elected not to implement other applications because of the overall impact they could have on the devices performance.

8. How is the Verizon Wireless GPS service secure?
Our location based service requires customers to choose to be identified by a GPS service before the users location is shared. It is the best way to protect customers and minimize the potential for "man in the middle" attacks. The Verizon Wireless Location Service encrypts the customer location information in the device before transmitting it to the network. Verizon Wireless requires all location requests be authenticated before the handset or network can obtain a customers location information.

9. What do I do for GPS service now since Verizon Wireless hasn't approved any service? I'm unhappy and want my money back.

While we respect your request, we would encourage you to be patient for our updates to the BlackBerry 8830, which will support several options for GPS. The BlackBerry 8830 is a great device that allows customers to stay in touch while traveling in over 170 countries for voice service and 90 countries for email. Should you wish to return your device, the Verizon Wireless Worry Free Guarantee allows customers 30 days to be completely satisfied with their service or they get their money back. Please call *611 on your Verizon Wireless phone to discuss options based on your individual circumstances.
Since you did not post this in original format i.e. to you and who sent it too you from VZW, I for 1 have a hard time believing this is from a VZW CS rep or Executive Services or any other part of VZW . But thats my view/opinion.
Personally I have tired of Verizon's BS, and marketing games
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I recieved the same document from our Verizon Wireless Government Rep.
It has the same 9 Q&A's however it has this at the top of the document:
Verizon Wireless Support for LBS on BlackBerry 8830
General Response:
Verizon Wireless chose not to offer the GPS mapping tool offered by RIM on the BlackBerry 8830 for a number of reasons. Historically, we have always taken a pragmatic approach when allowing location based services on any Verizon Wireless device. We test phones and applications more than other carriers and the RIM GPS mapping tool has not passed our testing for security and performance. We plan to offer Verizon Wirelessxxx8217; VZ Navigator and a number of third party GPS based applications for the BlackBerry 8830 later this year once the services pass our testing. It is important that we use applications that have been tested and approved because it directly impacts the level of performance as well as the assistance customers can expect when they call Verizon Wireless Tech Support.
Below are some Q&A's that will help assist with inquiries you may have.

I do find it funny that they pretty much used the same answer for each of the questions!
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Other VZW CDMA/GSM Phones

Under the International Section in the Business tab on the VZW website under phones you will notice the Motorola a840 and Samsung a795 cell phones. Both are CDMA/GSM phones and have been sold for a while. The 8830 is not the first CDMA/GSM phone availible from VZW/CELLCO PARTNERSHIP. Also the Samsung i830 has been sold for a while so it appears that the 8830 is not the first "international" PDA offered. In my opinion the i830 was rendered obsolete by the 8830.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdogg View Post
I don't consider myself stupid (but I suppose neither to most stupid people ). However, I simply don't know enough about how GPS tracking is implemented in smartphones to know what is BS and what is not.

The fact that the new Q has GPS enable could mean that Verizon is simply blowing smoke up our a$$ regarding the 8830 - or it could simply mean that the Q simply has a different (and more "secure" per Verizon's security standards) implementation of GPS tracking.

So the $64000 question becomes "If you're doing this because of security concerns, why is GPS enabled on the new Motorola Q?" The OP didn't ask this question because s/he presumably didn't know about the new Q. If anyone here can ask someone "in the know" at Verizon this question, I'd LOVE to hear the answer.
Help me out here. Where are you seeing that the GPS is enabled on the new Q? When I looked at the site it showed that it was "aGPS for e911", not that it had GPS on it. aGPS for e911 is on all new phones if I'm not mistaken, and is not the same thing as good ole GPS (autonomous).

Thanks.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The website indicated aGPS (assisted) and sGPS (simultaneous). Last I checked sGPS was a combo of aGPS and regular GPS, but don't quote me on that. According to phonescoop.com the Q9m only has A-GPS on it.

I will say this, I do agree with VZW that if the phone was setup to work with BBMaps and GPS and they didn't train VZW employees to troubleshoot issues with it then they would have a problem with people calling in asking about it when it didn't work or had problems (like when you're in a building, duh). However, most of the time support passes you to Blackberry anyway because VZW support blows (this Q&A is proof positive or the repetitive parots that work there). Not only that, but if they were so worried why not just "not install" BBMaps on the phone and leave GPS alone? That way if someone installed an app to get access and use GPS, but had problems with it and called support, VZW could simply state that they don't offer support for 3rd party apps. Case closed. Hell, when's the last time someone called VZW because their 3rd party/self installed apps on a BB didn't work?

Point here, those mofos better release some app that doesn't cost anything or they are in a world of hurt one way or another. This Q&A is proof one again at how hard they try and "brain wash" their customers with the answers........ I forget, why didn't they enable GPS.... wasn't it a security issue? :rolleyes: I think that's what the Q&A wanted to say.... hum. :sarcastic:
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Old 08-23-2007, 05:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjayson View Post
Will VZ Navigator work worldwide? Not much use on a global phone if it does not.
no since you only get verizon signal in the usa, and since its assisted by the use of cdma towers.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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btw for anybody who is bored,

Quote:
GPS

As previously mentioned, the 8830 uses the same built-in GPS receiver used in the 8800, the SiRFstarIII-LT. This gives the phone lower power consumption than other GPS receivers, and the ability to use "Assisted GPS" from cellular towers for faster location fixes.

During my testing the receiver obtained and maintained a strong signal, though my testing was limited to the mostly suburban areas around a major city (Cincinnati).

The map system provided useful navigation assistance, allowing the same bells and whistles one would expect from typical GPS navigation and could even pull addresses from the BlackBerry's address book.

Editor's Note: The 8830 that Verizon sent Brighthand for this review has its GPS functionality enabled, but this carrier is currently disabling this feature on units being offered to customers. It intends to change this later in the year, allowing users to access the GPS hardware that's built into this device. The version being offered by Sprint has GPS enabled now.
this is pre release review,

now the fun stuff.

Quote:
Specifications

Processor: 312 MHz Marvell XScale
Operating System: BlackBerry 4.2.1.72
Display: 2.5 inch, 320 x 240 pixel transmissive/reflective LCD
Memory: 64 MB flash memory
Size & Weight: 4.49 inches long x 2.6 inches wide x 0.55 inches thick; 4.73 ounces
Expansion: Single microSD slot
Docking: Single mini-USB port
Communication: Quad-band GSM/GPRS/EDGE; Bluetooth 2.0
Audio: 2.5mm headphone jack; speakerphone; speaker & mouthpiece for phone
Battery: 1400 mAh replaceable Lithium Ion cell
Input: 35-key thumb keyboard; trackball with press-to-select
Other: SiRFstar III-LT GPS receiver
someone find the os, and actually you will know if its software or hardware lock, i do belive it is hardware locked tho, so we can stop beating a dead horse.

oh yeh source http://http://www.brighthand.com/def...p?newsID=13162
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Old 08-23-2007, 07:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Verizon Wireless supports Assisted GPS (AGPS) rather than stand-alone GPS like some others use. AGPS uses the Verizon Wireless Network to provide more accurate, faster location information, in addition to better navigation performance indoors and in dense urban areas. At launch, we elected not to implement other applications because of the overall impact they could have on the devices performance.

This seems to imply that VZ Navagator will not work outside the US. I would also like GPS for mapping outside the US.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabbit View Post
btw for anybody who is bored,



this is pre release review,

now the fun stuff.



someone find the os, and actually you will know if its software or hardware lock, i do belive it is hardware locked tho, so we can stop beating a dead horse.

oh yeh source http://http://www.brighthand.com/def...p?newsID=13162
OS 4.2.1 doesn't support CDMA. The firmware will not flash correctly.

Last edited by JRSCCivic98 : 08-23-2007 at 11:31 PM.
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