Sprint 8830 bait and switch?

[flybd5]

I am on my first international trip with the 8830, Brussels and Amsterdam. I bought the phone in order to have one number and the same functionality in the US as internationally.

It turns out this is not the case. Sprint will bait and switch you on this one. I have no ability to send or receive SMS text messages, and no GPS functionality whatsoever. As soon as I switched out of CDMA, both these features went dead.

Calling the International support number, their reply was that they don't guarantee any SMS service outside of the US, and that GPS is turned off ON PURPOSE, depriving me of a critical feature for which I selected the phone, to be able to find where I am anywhere in the world and navigate to destinations and safety as needed.

This is a clear and definitive violation of their service contract and the terms of the sale of the device. At no time was I told or did I sign any document stating the service would be curtailed outside of the US for these very basic, basic features. I intend to pursue redress for this. If you have similar feelings about me, comment here or reply via email.

[JSanders]

**moved to Rants and Raves section**

Sorry to hear of the troubles.

[harryzuluberries]

I also owned an 8830, but didn't travel outside the country during the short time I used it before switching to the 8330. My understanding of its capabilities, with regard to data, was that it has a sim slot so that when one does leave the country you are able to purchase a sim card abroad and use whichever features you pay for using the foreign sim. This obviously would involve having to use a different phone number as well. I'll see if I can dig up some of the literature I used when making the decision to purchase this phone......which I still own btw, for when I do travel.

*
Edit:
If you go HERE you will see that they have next to no specific information on data roaming and most FAQs end with you having to call a special CS number to get info. This is because Sprint is very weak in the international dept, except in Australia, Mexico and a small handful of countries.

Basically Sprint will place the responsibility on you to figure all of that out by purchasing third party sim cards, etc. Honestly, and I mean this with all due respect, it sounds like a case of you not doing enough (or the right) research on the matter prior to purchase. I can give you the number to SPRINT/NEXTEL Executive Services so you don't have to deal with standard CS as you try to resolve this matter if you pm me.

[southwestcomm]

Sprint provides excellent support and information for all countries. Have you tried calling the int'l dept?
As for GPS - I replied in your other rant - Qualcomm chipsets don't have GPS capability off the CDMA network. This is not false advertising or "bait and switch" on Sprint's part. If you asked the proper questions prior to purchasing they would have told you this GPS doesn't work outside the US.

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by harryzuluberries

I also owned an 8830, but didn't travel outside the country during the short time I used it before switching to the 8330. My understanding of its capabilities, with regard to data, was that it has a sim slot so that when one does leave the country you are able to purchase a sim card abroad and use whichever features you pay for using the foreign sim. This obviously would involve having to use a different phone number as well. I'll see if I can dig up some of the literature I used when making the decision to purchase this phone......which I still own btw, for when I do travel.

*
Edit:
If you go HERE you will see that they have next to no specific information on data roaming and most FAQs end with you having to call a special CS number to get info. This is because Sprint is very weak in the international dept, except in Australia, Mexico and a small handful of countries.

Basically Sprint will place the responsibility on you to figure all of that out by purchasing third party sim cards, etc. Honestly, and I mean this with all due respect, it sounds like a case of you not doing enough (or the right) research on the matter prior to purchase. I can give you the number to SPRINT/NEXTEL Executive Services so you don't have to deal with standard CS as you try to resolve this matter if you pm me.

The 8830 from Sprint comes with its own Sprint SIM card. When it comes to contracted services, the contract rules, not the web site. I travel to Reston regularly and will go directly to their corporate offices to try to resolve this amicably. Thank you.

Juan

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

Sprint provides excellent support and information for all countries. Have you tried calling the int'l dept?
As for GPS - I replied in your other rant - Qualcomm chipsets don't have GPS capability off the CDMA network. This is not false advertising or "bait and switch" on Sprint's part. If you asked the proper questions prior to purchasing they would have told you this GPS doesn't work outside the US.

Of course I called. How do you think I found out their position on this issue?

As to GPS, you need to carefully inform yourself before responding to a message in this manner. Qualcomm makes the CDMA side of the phone, which has squat to do with true GPS. This from RIM:

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone houses a proprietary, autonomous GPS receiver. This receiver is able to calculate the handheld's location relying solely on GPS satellites with no input from cellular towers. While the device does have assisted GPS, i.e. A-GPS capability, it houses a "full" GPS system similar in nature to GPS systems used by GPS-only car kits and mobile devices. This is designed to be accessible by second- and third-party applications such as BlackBerry Maps, Google Maps, and TeleNav. Such programs do need a wireless data signal to download mapping information, though they can figure out where the BlackBerry is in terms of latitude
and longitude with just the GPS signal.

What the Qualcomm chipset allows is tower triangulation. GPS location to 10 meters, as the chipset on the 8830 and any Blackberry with GPS can do, is impossible to achieve using tower triangulation.

Juan

[TBOLTRAM]

I have a Verizon 8830 and when I went to the Czech Republic several months ago I got the Verizon SIM card. Phone worked with no issues on SMS, voice and email. Not the cheapest solution but it worked.

[ezrunner]

where is the "bait and switch"

[rachamphetamine]

I too am trying to figure out where the bait and switch in this is but I can understand the frustration.

Originally Posted by flybd5

Such programs do need a wireless data signal to download mapping information

Is your data connection GSM or GPRS? That might have something to do with why the GPS is out.

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by TBOLTRAM

I have a Verizon 8830 and when I went to the Czech Republic several months ago I got the Verizon SIM card. Phone worked with no issues on SMS, voice and email. Not the cheapest solution but it worked.

Did the GPS work? Last I heard Verizon disables the GPS as well.

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by ezrunner

where is the "bait and switch"

World Phone. All services available worldwide. One phone number worldwide. Contract makes no exclusion statements.

Then when it's time to use them, SMS doesn't work, GPS is disabled, phone as modem is disabled as well.

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by rachamphetamine

I too am trying to figure out where the bait and switch in this is but I can understand the frustration.

Is your data connection GSM or GPRS? That might have something to do with why the GPS is out.

These issues happen with both GSM and GPRS service. SMS should work with either one. The GPS function has nothing to do with the type of connection on CDMA, GSM or GPRS.

Juan

[JSanders]

You really have a beef with Sprint. We are not Sprint.

Nothing here will get you settled, and obviously you had a different expectation of your device that Sprint intended to deliver. Whether or not they contractually promised it is between your attorneys.

Good luck.

[TBOLTRAM]

Originally Posted by flybd5

Did the GPS work? Last I heard Verizon disables the GPS as well.

No, did not expect it to. End of comment.

What was interesting was that Google Maps did not work in Europe with my phone and version of GM I had at the time. When I turned it on it showed me in Spring Texas when I actually was in Prague airport. Same thing happened in Amsterdam.

[southwestcomm]

Originally Posted by flybd5

Of course I called. How do you think I found out their position on this issue?

As to GPS, you need to carefully inform yourself before responding to a message in this manner. Qualcomm makes the CDMA side of the phone, which has squat to do with true GPS. This from RIM:

The BlackBerry 8830 smartphone houses a proprietary, autonomous GPS receiver. This receiver is able to calculate the handheld's location relying solely on GPS satellites with no input from cellular towers. While the device does have assisted GPS, i.e. A-GPS capability, it houses a "full" GPS system similar in nature to GPS systems used by GPS-only car kits and mobile devices. This is designed to be accessible by second- and third-party applications such as BlackBerry Maps, Google Maps, and TeleNav. Such programs do need a wireless data signal to download mapping information, though they can figure out where the BlackBerry is in terms of latitude
and longitude with just the GPS signal.

What the Qualcomm chipset allows is tower triangulation. GPS location to 10 meters, as the chipset on the 8830 and any Blackberry with GPS can do, is impossible to achieve using tower triangulation.

Juan

That is true - there is an autonomous GPS chip but ALL CDMA devices depend on AGPS to get their initial fix - hence the need for the Qualcomm chip. This is the same reason the device can not give you GPS tracking after - approximately - 30 minutes of no coverage in the US. Just the way it is.

[juwaack68]

Originally Posted by flybd5

World Phone. All services available worldwide. One phone number worldwide. Contract makes no exclusion statements.

Then when it's time to use them, SMS doesn't work, GPS is disabled, phone as modem is disabled as well.

I'm not sure about the GPS, but I know the text messaging (SMS) and phone as modem DO work overseas.

I see charges on our company Sprint account all the time for international text messaging. Also, if you have the $69.99 Worldwide BB data plan, you have to add on the $15 PAM for that to work.

Perhaps you should switch to AT&T. They are advertising Global GPS now with ATT Navigator (for $19.99/mo).

Good luck in your quest. And I hope you make it thru the door in Reston.

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by JSanders

You really have a beef with Sprint. We are not Sprint.

Nothing here will get you settled, and obviously you had a different expectation of your device that Sprint intended to deliver. Whether or not they contractually promised it is between your attorneys.

Good luck.

You're pretty good at stating the obvious, aren't you. You're just rephrasing what I stated from the beginning of the thread.

The point is finding out if more people have been through the same issue. There is power in numbers, that's how change is brought about.

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by TBOLTRAM

No, did not expect it to. End of comment.

What was interesting was that Google Maps did not work in Europe with my phone and version of GM I had at the time. When I turned it on it showed me in Spring Texas when I actually was in Prague airport. Same thing happened in Amsterdam.

If you tried Google Maps and it didn't work it seems you expected the GPS to work too, as I did. There is no CDMA service for Verizon in Europe, only GSM, so the 1800-ft-accuracy tower triangulation that Google Maps falls back on would not have functioned. I know Verizon has received a large number of complaints about this and they have acknowledged they disable the GPS outside the US as well.

Juan

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by juwaack68

I'm not sure about the GPS, but I know the text messaging (SMS) and phone as modem DO work overseas.

I see charges on our company Sprint account all the time for international text messaging. Also, if you have the $69.99 Worldwide BB data plan, you have to add on the $15 PAM for that to work.

Perhaps you should switch to AT&T. They are advertising Global GPS now with ATT Navigator (for $19.99/mo).

Good luck in your quest. And I hope you make it thru the door in Reston.

Are the charges for international text messaging for SMS traffic to or from the US? Of course it will work from the US. The international desk knows nothing of a "PAM" plan. I have everything on my plan that you can throw at a Blackberry 8830.

As to getting in the door, appreciate the sentiment, but I've already achieved far more than that once before when a store supervisor told me that if they trashed my phone accidentally and my data was lost as a result, it was not their fault, and I should talk to my lawyer if I don't like that. I did. That supervisor no longer works at Sprint and Sprint was extremely apologetic, as well as forthcoming with a PDA phone to replace the Samsung so I can back up my own data rather than relying on some store dweeb forgetting to do it before trashing the phone.

A lot of people just don't understand that bad service doesn't fix itself.

Juan

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

That is true - there is an autonomous GPS chip but ALL CDMA devices depend on AGPS to get their initial fix - hence the need for the Qualcomm chip. This is the same reason the device can not give you GPS tracking after - approximately - 30 minutes of no coverage in the US. Just the way it is.

First, this is not a pure CDMA device, and second, RIM disagrees with you. I'll go with RIM's knowledge of their own hardware. Thanks, I appreciate the response nonetheless.

Juan

[TBOLTRAM]

Originally Posted by flybd5

If you tried Google Maps and it didn't work it seems you expected the GPS to work too, as I did. There is no CDMA service for Verizon in Europe, only GSM, so the 1800-ft-accuracy tower triangulation that Google Maps falls back on would not have functioned. I know Verizon has received a large number of complaints about this and they have acknowledged they disable the GPS outside the US as well.

Juan

With the Verizon SIM card the 8830 connected to the Vodafone GSM service both in Amsterdam (Vodafone) and the Czech Republic (Vodafone CZ). I was hoping that Google Maps would use the GSM cell towers to get a rough position. Instead, Google Maps came back with the Spring Texas location.

Remember, Verizon Wireless is owned by both Verizon and Vodafone. I knew that when I got the 8830 and expected good service when on GSM out of North America. It is not the cheapest solution but it worked 100 percent of the time and what good is something "cheap" that does not work.

We had a Blauplank (?) GPS in the car but it had the rather nasty habit of dying if it was in the sun too long. We would take it off the windshield, put it in front of an AC vent, cool it off and reboot it. Having the GPS in the 8830 working would have been nice during those times.

[jduffield23]

There is a number you have to call 24 hours in advance to taking off for international travel. 1-888-226-7212 and they will change a configuration on your account for international data.

[sgtcasey]

I don't see the bait and switch either.

Dave

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by TBOLTRAM

With the Verizon SIM card the 8830 connected to the Vodafone GSM service both in Amsterdam (Vodafone) and the Czech Republic (Vodafone CZ). I was hoping that Google Maps would use the GSM cell towers to get a rough position. Instead, Google Maps came back with the Spring Texas location.

Remember, Verizon Wireless is owned by both Verizon and Vodafone. I knew that when I got the 8830 and expected good service when on GSM out of North America. It is not the cheapest solution but it worked 100 percent of the time and what good is something "cheap" that does not work.

We had a Blauplank (?) GPS in the car but it had the rather nasty habit of dying if it was in the sun too long. We would take it off the windshield, put it in front of an AC vent, cool it off and reboot it. Having the GPS in the 8830 working would have been nice during those times.

Oh, the GSM and GPRS service works fine here with the Sprint SIM card. The only issue I've had is that for some reason the default provider for the Netherlands dropped out of GPRS into GSM and I had no data no matter what I tried. I referred to the welcome SMS message and saw that Vodafone NL was also a provider so I switched to that and it works fine now.

[sgtcasey]

Originally Posted by flybd5

Oh, the GSM and GPRS service works fine here with the Sprint SIM card. The only issue I've had is that for some reason the default provider for the Netherlands dropped out of GPRS into GSM and I had no data no matter what I tried. I referred to the welcome SMS message and saw that Vodafone NL was also a provider so I switched to that and it works fine now.

That sounds about right. When traveling overseas you usually have a few choices when it comes to networks you can roam on. Some provide data, some do not. I know with T-Mobile there is a section of their website dedicated to telling you which provider in which country does what. I'm sure Sprint has something like that or at least their customer service folks should be able to help.

Dave

[flybd5]

Originally Posted by sgtcasey

That sounds about right. When traveling overseas you usually have a few choices when it comes to networks you can roam on. Some provide data, some do not. I know with T-Mobile there is a section of their website dedicated to telling you which provider in which country does what. I'm sure Sprint has something like that or at least their customer service folks should be able to help.

Dave

I brought up the issue that I had received SMS welcome messages when I arrived in-country, and asked why those worked but others did not. The Sprint rep choked. No answer. About par for the course.

Juan

[rachamphetamine]

Originally Posted by flybd5

These issues happen with both GSM and GPRS service. SMS should work with either one. The GPS function has nothing to do with the type of connection on CDMA, GSM or GPRS.

Juan

I didn't mean SMS. You're right, that should go through no matter what. What I was talking about was your data connection as it would enable Google Maps to download the required maps so that you could use the program.