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Old 12-17-2005, 11:15 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase88
Vista/NTP just went after Microsoft for push email. What makes you think Goodlink is litigation proof from NTP?
Maybe the fact that Good, along with Nokia and Visto, has signed a licensing agreement with NTP.
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Old 12-17-2005, 11:22 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
Sad truth. All other hardware is years behind blackberry. People buy RIM solution not that much for BES or what ports you have to open in firewall, but for devices.

GoodLink can copy RIM on software side as much as they want and can, but it takes much more to design good hardware.

Go with GoodLink, depend on 'Made in Who Known Where Don't Know How' mobile devices.

Say, I want to give executives International 4-band devices, managers to use CDMA, our 10,000 assembly and warehouse workers to have WiFi devices (so that we can save $7 million annually on fees to wireless carriers and give every worker true office mobile device)- and we want same style, same look and same software on all of them. Easier to support.

Oh, yes- and server-side software must support all of them, too.
For your international folks, GSM Treos, managers-CDMA Treos, Warehouse workers-Ruggeduze devices from Symbol. All with GoodLink. Or, you can give them all the Siemens SX-66 which has both GSM and WiFi. All with server-side software support.

Choice is a great thing.

And, with Global Connect, Good doesn't have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers. If they support the network and have a data feed, the Treo with GoodLink will work anywhere your international folks need to be.
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Old 12-17-2005, 02:04 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Maybe the fact that Good, along with Nokia and Visto, has signed a licensing agreement with NTP.
Ahhh. So they do. Just another one of those companies trying to capitalize on the lawsuit against RIM.
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Old 12-17-2005, 03:11 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase88
Ahhh. So they do. Just another one of those companies trying to capitalize on the lawsuit against RIM.
How are Nokia, Good and Visto capitalizing on the lawsuit against RIMM by signing licensing agreements with NTP?
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Old 12-17-2005, 09:57 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
How are Nokia, Good and Visto capitalizing on the lawsuit against RIMM by signing licensing agreements with NTP?
Despite no lawsuit by NTP, these companies approached NTP and negotiated licensing agreements. This buys them the public perception that their respective products are safe from being shut down.

And I wouldn't be surprised if each of them embarks on a sales campaign over the next little while....all carefully engineered to reassure people that their service won't be shut down...
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:40 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase88
Despite no lawsuit by NTP, these companies approached NTP and negotiated licensing agreements. This buys them the public perception that their respective products are safe from being shut down.

And I wouldn't be surprised if each of them embarks on a sales campaign over the next little while....all carefully engineered to reassure people that their service won't be shut down...
And the fact of the matter is that they are assured of not being shut down because of this. I am of the opinion that BB won't be shut down either, however, there is a much greater chance of BB being shut down than there is of Good, Nokia or Visto. It isn't perception. It is fact. Who is to say NTP didn't approach these companies as opposed to the other way around? Being that Nokia was the first company to license with NTP, I tend to think their legal department felt it was a safe and smart business decision. Had RIMM done the same think when they were provided the opportunity, they would not be in the legal mess they are in now.
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:48 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Had RIMM done the same think when they were provided the opportunity, they would not be in the legal mess they are in now.
I don't blame RIM for resisting a settlement. Would you admit to wrongdoing and pay a penalty if you didn't believe that you did anything wrong? The US patent office appears to be siding with RIM.

Its in the best interest of Visto, Nokia, et al to deal with NTP. RIM is the king of wireless email. They need someone like NTP to knock out the king...otherwise they wouldn't be able to gain marketshare. If I were a Visto I'd be more than anxious to forge a deal with NTP....
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Old 12-17-2005, 11:03 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I trust Nokia's legal department more than I do RIMM's. Nokia signed with NTP long before they announced any kind of wireless email strategy. Smart business decision. RIMM's history with patent issues is long and well known. They just paid the University of Texas a settlement on a patent issue. According to their fincial statements:

" During the second quarter of fiscal 2003, the Company recorded an expense of $4.9 million for its current and estimated future costs with respect to ongoing legal fees for the NTP matter."

"Accordingly, during the third quarter of fiscal 2003, the
Company recorded an expense of $23.1 million pursuant to the jury verdict and recorded an expense of $4.7 million for its current and estimated future costs with respect to ongoing legal fees for the NTP matter, for a total charge of $27.8 million."

If I am not mistaken, last quarter they spent over $6 million in legal costs. My guesstimation is that up to this point, over $20 million spent in legal fees. Seems to me, an early license agreement 4 years ago when they had the chance would have been a better choice, especially from a PR perspective.

But that aside, RIMM's growth has slowed the last two quarters. That was even with the original settlement agreement that was announced. RIMM was the king of wireless email because they were the only game in town. That is no longer the case.

Last edited by Good_Guy : 12-17-2005 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 12-17-2005, 11:08 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Nokia made a deal with NTP shortly before announcing Blackberry Connect.

Good and Danger have been around for a while now...I recall reading back in 2000 about Good. There have been some legal spats between RIM and Good...

The slowed growth may be somewhat attributed to the legal issue with NTP. However I believe the delays with the 8700 series was mostly to blame.
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Old 12-17-2005, 11:16 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Jase, we are going to have to agree to disagree here. The slowed growth was before the 8700 was even announced. They are already pointing to the 8700 as the reason for THIS quarters numbers being off. The RIMM and Good issue was settled by Good. I think I read somewhere that Good CEO said money was better spent on the settlement so Good could move on rather than legal fees. Not a bad concept.

Anyway, I think NTP are trolls and though they are the competition, I think RIMM is getting screwed here. Problem is, their history of patent issues and their arrogance, whether real or perceived.
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Old 12-18-2005, 08:32 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Quote:
How are Nokia, Good and Visto capitalizing on the lawsuit against RIMM by signing licensing agreements with NTP?
This is what Good's News page obsessed with:


December 13, 2005 CIOL BlackBerry customers switch over to GoodLink

December 12, 2005 Stockwatch RIM Globe says Good moves to fill gap if RIM cracks up

December 12, 2005 USA Today BlackBerry patent fight spooks some customers

December 10, 2005 Washington Post BlackBerry Users Remain in the Dark
PR Experts Say RIM Must Do More to Inform Customers

December 9, 2005 Dow Jones News Some Research In Motion Customers Make Contingency Plans

December 1, 2005 Washington Post Ruling Puts BlackBerry® Maker at Crossroads
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Old 12-18-2005, 08:41 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Quote:
For your international folks, GSM Treos, managers-CDMA Treos, Warehouse workers-Ruggeduze devices from Symbol. Or, you can give them all the Siemens SX-66 which has both GSM and WiFi.

Choice is a great thing.
Too much choice could be bad. How many support contracts you'll have to sign for these devices, do they have same consistent UI, do they provide same functionality?

I am just supporting you point: the hardest part of migrating from RIM solution is to choose what device to replace blackberry with.

It is not news: Good itself was piggybacking on RIM hardware, the fact they'd prefer not to mention too loud these days.


Quote:
And, with Global Connect, Good doesn't have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers.
RIM does not have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers, too. Why should they?

As long as wireless provider in other country has data roaming agreement with your wireless provider, your blackberry will work there just fine. Just like any other cell phone with data support from your provider. Just like cell phone with GoodLink software on it.
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:27 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
Too much choice could be bad. How many support contracts you'll have to sign for these devices, do they have same consistent UI, do they provide same functionality?
Same UI and functionality across platforms. Support contracts for the are through the carrier, so regardless of device.
Quote:

I am just supporting you point: the hardest part of migrating from RIM solution is to choose what device to replace blackberry with.
Exactly. That is the hardest part: which device to use. Want Windows, Palm or Symbian? What else do you want to do with the device?

Quote:
It is not news: Good itself was piggybacking on RIM hardware, the fact they'd prefer not to mention too loud these days.
Operative word being was. Good has not supported RIMM hardware for quite awhile (last version to support the 900/957 was 3.5, I think).

Quote:
RIM does not have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers, too. Why should they?

As long as wireless provider in other country has data roaming agreement with your wireless provider, your blackberry will work there just fine. Just like any other cell phone with data support from your provider. Just like cell phone with GoodLink software on it.
Actually, RIMM does have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers. That is because the carrier has to route BB traffic through the BB NOC. That is why they are always announcing agreements with these international carriers:

-Tango And RIM To Introduce BlackBerry In Luxembourg
-TDC Mobile Launches BlackBerry
-Orascom Telecom and RIM Announce Plans To Bring BlackBerry to the Middle East, Africa and South Asia
-mobilkom austria Launches BlackBerry Connect in Austria
-AIS and RIM Join Forces to Deliver BlackBerry to Corporate Customers in Thailand
-Síminn Brings BlackBerry to Mobile Professionals in Iceland
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:31 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
This is what Good's News page obsessed with:


December 13, 2005 CIOL BlackBerry customers switch over to GoodLink

December 12, 2005 Stockwatch RIM Globe says Good moves to fill gap if RIM cracks up

December 12, 2005 USA Today BlackBerry patent fight spooks some customers

December 10, 2005 Washington Post BlackBerry Users Remain in the Dark
PR Experts Say RIM Must Do More to Inform Customers

December 9, 2005 Dow Jones News Some Research In Motion Customers Make Contingency Plans

December 1, 2005 Washington Post Ruling Puts BlackBerry® Maker at Crossroads
News releases that mention Good. What would you have them put on the News page?
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Old 12-18-2005, 06:59 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Quote:
Good has not supported RIMM hardware for quite awhile
They can not. Technically can not. They could wish, but they can not. RIM Java based devices are not that easily hackable as RIM's original blackberries.

Quote:
Actually, RIMM does have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers. That is because the carrier has to route BB traffic through the BB NOC.
Sorry, dude, you are wrong. Plain wrong, confused, or intentionally misleading.

Say, you are using T-Mobile phone, handheld or blackberry. You want to travel to Burumbia.
What do you have to check? You have to check if Burumbia has GSM wireless carriers, and if said carriers have GPRS roaming agreement with T-Mobile.
If they are and they do, you take your phone, handheld, blackberry- and travel worry free, roaming charges included.

There is nothing whatsoever special about blackberries working overseas. Don't make it look like it is.

Quote:
That is why they are always announcing agreements with these international carriers
They are announcing agreements with American, Canadian, international carriers when these carriers start selling blackberries. It is different story.

Example: you live in Burumbia and want to buy local Burumbian blackberry that you can use with local wireless carrier without paying roaming charges.
What do you have to check? You have to check if Burumbia has wireless carrier which signed agreement with RIM to sell their blackberries, and buy one from said carrier.

That is completely different from 'can my German blackberry work in Burumbia when I am there on vacations with meine fraw?'

Quote:
News releases that mention Good. What would you have them put on the News page?

You asked how Good capitalizes on RIM's misfortune. I gave you an answer. Most of these stories do not mention Good at all. Good is not only game in town, I can try MS Windows Mobile if RIM goes belly up in USA, for example.

What would I want? To see a company be less obsessed with the competitor it tried to copy all the way.
I would not buy into Good solution: when RIM is gone Good will have nobody to steal (pardon, borrow) ideas from and will be dismissed by the all-mighty Microsoft 3-4 years from now.

The future belongs to companies that sell hardware and give software for free. Look at what Linux did to PCs and servers.

Good only has software. They tried with RIM's hardware- RIM cut them off. They tried with their G100- I can't find it in the Good's list of products on their main page any more.

What they ended up is software. They sell software. Microsoft will offer software for free, incided into device and into MS Exchange server. Good will be as good as dead with that business model. RIM might survive if RIM keeps building cool devices and satisfied with the role in handheld market that Apple has in PC market: 5% of users who can pay for coolness.
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Old 12-18-2005, 09:31 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
They can not. Technically can not. They could wish, but they can not. RIM Java based devices are not that easily hackable as RIM's original blackberries.
Actually, no we don't. We ran on the 900 and 957 with RIMM's blessing. We have no desire to run on the BB platform. No need. Wider support for more devices.

Quote:
Say, you are using T-Mobile phone, handheld or blackberry. You want to travel to Burumbia.
What do you have to check? You have to check if Burumbia has GSM wireless carriers, and if said carriers have GPRS roaming agreement with T-Mobile.
If they are and they do, you take your phone, handheld, blackberry- and travel worry free, roaming charges included.

There is nothing whatsoever special about blackberries working overseas. Don't make it look like it is.
I think I misworded my point. If your carrier does not have a roaming agreement with that carrier, your BB will not work. With GoodLink, your carrier does not have to have a roaming agreement. Your GSM phone, with a SIM for that carrier, will work whether your carrier has a roaming agreement or not.

Quote:
They are announcing agreements with American, Canadian, international carriers when these carriers start selling blackberries. It is different story.

Example: you live in Burumbia and want to buy local Burumbian blackberry that you can use with local wireless carrier without paying roaming charges.
What do you have to check? You have to check if Burumbia has wireless carrier which signed agreement with RIM to sell their blackberries, and buy one from said carrier.

That is completely different from 'can my German blackberry work in Burumbia when I am there on vacations with meine fraw?'
My mistake. You are 100% correct regarding the agreement portion.


Quote:
You asked how Good capitalizes on RIM's misfortune. I gave you an answer. Most of these stories do not mention Good at all. Good is not only game in town, I can try MS Windows Mobile if RIM goes belly up in USA, for example.
Every article you posted mentioned Good. USA Today quoted Danny Shader and was the only email provider mentioned outside of RIMM. The Washington Post article had a quote from Terry Austin, the president of Good. The DJ news article mentioned Good as well. All the others had Good in the headline. Seems like the media seems to think we ARE the other player, though I know we are not, even though with the Nokia purchasing Intellisync, that left Good as the one major stand-alone (not white-box, like Visto and Seven) wireless email provider. Want to go with Windows Mobile? Go ahead. One phone out there right now (Sprint 6700) and the only way you are getting secure email on it is with GoodLink.
Quote:
What would I want? To see a company be less obsessed with the competitor it tried to copy all the way.
I would not buy into Good solution: when RIM is gone Good will have nobody to steal (pardon, borrow) ideas from and will be dismissed by the all-mighty Microsoft 3-4 years from now.
Funny, seems to me RIMM is the one in court for "borrowing" ideas. All over the world I might mention. Just paid a million dollar settlement with the Univ of Texas for "borrowing" an idea. As for MSFT, I said it before, I will say it again, their solution is at best an SMB play. No enterprise in their right mind is going to deploy an enterprise wide solution with questionable security, no device or fleet management. Besides, how many large Exchange 2003 installation are going to throw an SP on their servers before the first or second patch from MSFT?

Quote:
The future belongs to companies that sell hardware and give software for free. Look at what Linux did to PCs and servers.
Yep. Linux has completely displaced MSFT in the OS space.

Quote:
Good only has software. They tried with RIM's hardware- RIM cut them off. They tried with their G100- I can't find it in the Good's list of products on their main page any more.
Know why? Because the G100 was superior to any device RIMM had. Litigation in Motion came in full effect. Can't beat 'em, sue 'em.

Quote:
What they ended up is software. They sell software. Microsoft will offer software for free, incided into device and into MS Exchange server. Good will be as good as dead with that business model. RIM might survive if RIM keeps building cool devices and satisfied with the role in handheld market that Apple has in PC market: 5% of users who can pay for coolness.
Exchange ActiveSync will hurt RIMM MUCH more than it will hurt Good. MSFT will market the hell out of the feature to get people to buy WM devices. There goes RIMM's hardware revenue. Then, the carriers will push Good and RIMM over MSFT. Know why? How much will the carrier get if a customer deploys ActiveSync? Their monthly data plan. Period. The carriers drive this model, not RIMM, not Good, not MSFT. The carriers. That is why Good switched from a direct sales model to an indirect model. With RIMM and GoodLink, their ARPU is increased dramatically. Customer demand the devices and with the Redmond marketing arm going crazy, MSFT will push the devices. The carriers, however, will recommend the application. Want to increase ARPU on that brand new WM5 device you just sold? Show the customer GoodLink.

Exchange ActiveSync will NEVER be an enterprise-class solution. Limited functionality, security holes, and MSFT has NEVER gotten a product right the first time. WM5 is what, their third or fourth shot at a mobile OS? If it was worth anything, MSFT would productize and sell their email solution, not make a feature in Exchange.
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Old 12-18-2005, 09:57 PM   #97 (permalink)
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While I have to say, this debate has been one of the better ones I have been involved because of the lack of flaming, there is no way we are going to agree here. I completely outnumbered here, as would be expected. Obviously, I am biased one way while everyone else is the other. We could probably go on ad nauseum back and forth, knowing the you won't convince me and I won't convince you. I think the best way to sum it up is the next year or so is going to be very, very interesting in this space. NTP aside, consolidation in the wireless email space has already started with Seven/Smartner, Nokia/Intellisync, Sybase/Extended Systems and with MSFT jumping in with both feet. I honestly think RIMM and Good will end up the two preferred solutions in the wireless data space. I think the key differentiators will be the inovation and next-step products (MDS and GoodAccess for example) the two companies come out with. I don't think there will be a clear cut winner when the dust settles and that both organizations will have their spot in the market.
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Old 12-19-2005, 05:50 PM   #98 (permalink)
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And, with Global Connect, Good doesn't have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers. ...RIMM does have to have carrier agreements in place with international carriers. That is because the carrier has to route BB traffic through the BB NOC.
I still have not got an explanation, and because I travel internationally I can nail you on this, and I will.

For T-Mobile blackberry, all I have to do is to check this Web page: http://www.t-mobile.com/international/roamOverview.asp
There, I can select country I am travelling to, and find if GPRS coverage is available. Coverage for T-Mobile, mind you.

Show where RIM involved in this, and how GoodLink will work if GPRS coverage is not available?

Quote:
We ran on the 900 and 957 with RIMM's blessing. We have no desire to run on the BB platform. No need.
Well, if blessing did exist, what you are saying is GOOD can't compete with RIM on RIM's hardware. If they could, they would.

Quote:
Funny, seems to me RIMM is the one in court for "borrowing" ideas. ... the G100 was superior to any device RIMM had. Litigation in Motion came in full effect.
An irony of these two statements of yours put together escaped you, I guess. Chinese engineers which created G100 were not very meticulous in respecting RIM's intellectual property, perhaps.

Quote:
That is why Good switched from a direct sales model to an indirect model.
Another idea stolen from RIM. When was the last time RIM was in direct sales model?

Quote:
Exchange ActiveSync will NEVER be an enterprise-class solution. Limited functionality, security holes, and MSFT has NEVER gotten a product right the first time.
Right, it will fail as miserably as Microsoft Windows on desktops. Wait... Never mind.
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Old 12-19-2005, 08:50 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berry One
I still have not got an explanation, and because I travel internationally I can nail you on this, and I will.

For T-Mobile blackberry, all I have to do is to check this Web page: http://www.t-mobile.com/international/roamOverview.asp
There, I can select country I am travelling to, and find if GPRS coverage is available. Coverage for T-Mobile, mind you.

Show where RIM involved in this, and how GoodLink will work if GPRS coverage is not available?
As I said, I mis-stated as it relates to RIMM. If you are running GoodLink on a GPRS phone on T-Mobile in the US, you do not have to have a roaming agreement with the carrier in the country you are going to in order for GoodLink to work. If the GPRS carrier is offering a data connection, GoodLink will work with no roaming agreement necessary from your carrier.

Quote:
Well, if blessing did exist, what you are saying is GOOD can't compete with RIM on RIM's hardware. If they could, they would.
I don't follow that logic. At the time, the only hardware available was RIMM. Good then came out with the G100, which was consistently rated better than RIMM devices. Good made a business decision to go into the software business and out of the hardware business.

Quote:
An irony of these two statements of yours put together escaped you, I guess. Chinese engineers which created G100 were not very meticulous in respecting RIM's intellectual property, perhaps.
Kind of like the RIMM engineers not being very meticulous with the University of Texas' intellectual property?

Quote:
Another idea stolen from RIM. When was the last time RIM was in direct sales model?
You are going to sit there with a straight face and tell me RIMM invented indirect sales? You must be part of the RIMM's legal department. In actuality, the carriers came to Good to start the indirect sale through them. Wonder why...

Quote:
Right, it will fail as miserably as Microsoft Windows on desktops. Wait... Never mind.
That is operating system, not the application. Two entirely different things. Kind of like MSFT CRM is the leading CRM application...no..wait..Oh, like MSFT Search is displacing Google..no, that's not it...nevermind.
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Old 12-20-2005, 09:58 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good_Guy
As I said, I mis-stated as it relates to RIMM. If you are running GoodLink on a GPRS phone on T-Mobile in the US, you do not have to have a roaming agreement with the carrier in the country you are going to in order for GoodLink to work. If the GPRS carrier is offering a data connection, GoodLink will work with no roaming agreement necessary from your carrier.
your carrier has to have a GPRS roaming agreement with the foreign carrier for either to work. I don't think a carrier will let you roam out of the goodness of their heart, unless you have a roaming agreement so they get paid.. I was over in Europe afew weeks ago and used a pre-paid sim. No data service available with it however.
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