I had a telecon with senior executives at RIM and Cingular today to discuss the product launch and other issues. The conversation was candid and cordial with both RIM and Cingular taking action items and a promise to communicate back to me so that I could pass on the information to users and forum members.

First, the issues of the product launch. They screwed up the entire logistics process when they decided at the last minute to upgrade the frimware prior to making the product available. They also learned that despite numerous emails to empolyees on the product, becasue of the holiday many employees did not read their emails and were not knowledgeable about the product, it planned availability or how to take an order. I will go into more of these issues later but first let me get to the questions some of you have been raising.

1. Dust under the screen - They were not aware of this problem but are aware of it now and will put an engineering team to find a resolution. They believe that the product is made to the same high quality standards they have always had and are very concerned that the reputation be maintained. They are anxious to get back some units to evaluate what is going wrong. They promissed that this issue will be fixed and they will keep me informed so that I can keep you informed.

2. MMS - Both RIM and Cingular decided to delay the roll out of MMS until they can complete further testing and get their billing system working to support it. They could not give me a date but said they were working as quickly as possible to get the technical issues and billing issues resolved so they could get it out.

3. Voice Dialing - They are not aware of any 3rd party developers working on a solution. I mentioned that they should consider Fonix and Voice Signals as both have products that can be integrated into their OS. They indicated that the APIs needed to support this do not yet exist but there has been very high demand for the capability and their engineers are working on it. They indicated they would look into the companies I mentioned.

4. New BIS - Cingular has plans to roll out the new BIS. They could not give me a time line however, they indicated that they did not want to roll out a new BIS during the holiday season and that it would be after the new year. How far into the new year they could not tell me.

5. Receipt of Units for Launch Attendess - As I stated earlier, they acknowledge that they really goofed in the roll out and goofed in their failure to communicate. They promissed that all attendess will get the promissed units and asked that anyone having questions or problems PM me with their company info and they will take the data from me and work to expidite a resolution. The Cingular representatives were supposed to be contacting their respecttive customers or potential customers and keeping them informed.

6. PTT- no promises on PTT for the 8700 and I could not get much information on whether the hardware would support the required functionality.

7. UMTS/HSDPA - They acknowledged that the hardware will support it but no promises on if or whether it will be made available on the 8700. They did say that their focus right now was to get EDGE working well first.

8. Use as a Modem - They acknowledge that it is not as easy as they have plans to make it and that now it takes technical knowledge to get it to work. They will be rolling out new software that will make it easy along with a new billing plan for tethering.

9. Auto Bluetooth Issues - They have fully tested on the BMW, Mercedes and Audi Bluetooth systems. They now realize that they need to test on a variety of vehicles and to post compatibility information so that prospective buyers will know whether it works with their vehicle or not. I suggested that they post make, model and year tested data. They agreed that it was a good idea and said they would proceed to implement it. They did acknowledge that there were issues to be addressed and fixed and that they would be expanding the list of compatible vehicles.

10. Ringer Volume Controlled by Last Speakerphone Setting - They new about this problem from Jeff and it was in the hopper to be fixed with the next release of the software. No date could be given.

11. Defective Holsters/magnets - They were not aware of the issue of the holsters that did not put the units into sleep mode and would look into the problem.

Cingular acknowledged that they need to improve their sales organization and getting the information to their sales people. I explained that I had called several sales people before I found anyone that new what the product was or how to take an order. They acknowledged that it was an unacceptable business practice and one they inteded to fix. Both companies expressed a sincere desire to provide a quality product and service. They also promissed to do a better job of communicating in the future and invited me to relay problems or concerns to them and that they would provide me the best answers they could so that I could keep you all informed. Having said that, I don't want to be buried with every nit or problem that users find. Continue as in the past starting a thread and if I see a pattern I will take to RIM and Cingular and try and get a resolution. Don't forget, this is a part-time hobby for me and I work a busy job as an executive that has very high demands on my time. Thanks to all of you for the input and the opportunity to be your voice.

John

Excellent review. I wish other carriers would take the responsibility to get things right!

Thanks for taking your personal time to represent the users out here. We greatly appreciate it.

Scott

Excellent Work John. I'm sure all of us here appreciate your efforts in letting RIM and Cingular know these important issues that really need to be addressed. It's only going to result in a better product for them and for us.

John, this is great news. I know that our company values customers like yourself as the best tool to stay ahead of the market, and differentiate. I'm glad to see that RIM and Cingular are interested in the community's input, and assume that our (your) letter might have had something to do with sparking their interest! Keep up the good work.

PS - I'll PM you my details since I haven't received my NYC launch event unit yet!

Yes, they did contact me becasue of my letter and while it initially was very embarrasing to them they were glad that they got the communications.

Moderator, can you make this thread a sticky so that I can post responses I get from RIM & Cingular on this one thread. Especially since I am receiving PMs with other requests and I would like to address the requests and responses in one thread rather than all over the place. I will continue posting my own help and opinions in the appropriate threads but this will allow one place to see what RIM and Cingular senior management is saying to our concerns.

Thanks

Sure, I think this deserves a sticky...any other mods think so aswell?

EXCELLENT work! It's a nice feeling to know that they actually have humans in this company and that they care. I am most anxious to get the new BIS up and running, as well as UMTS (I am a little concerned that they are unsre whether the 8700 will be able tu utilize this. That is unless they have plans for a newer device around that time that is even better! 8800c?)

They indicated that the hardware is capable of supporting UMTS. The main concern seemed to be that they wanted to first have a successful EDGE roll out before they jumped into a newer technology (this was RIM speaking). As you know RIM has been a little late to the 3G game and I got the impression they want to work through the issues of EDGE and EV-DO before they tackle another technology that is still in its early roll out stages. (My impression from tone of conversation)

So you think it "feels" like late next year? Year after? Also, when you were discussing dust under glass, build quality, did you specifically speak about the open gaps on the lower sides of the device, where you can see light leak out in a dark room? That definitely needs to be sealed up better. Thanks again!

On the first part of your question, I would be purely guessing and I really don't know. My guess is as follows: if Cingular has a successful roll out of UMTS and demand is high to have it on the 8700 both RIM and Cingular will want to add it sooner rather than later, after all they are in the business to make money. Fi not it is anybodies guess. On the second part of your question, I did not go into that level of detail but rather expalined that it was hurting the quality image that RIM devices are known for and that was of great concern to them. My impression is that they will find the problem and get it fixed quickly. BoyGenius has taken the unit appart and says there is a rubber seal around the window so the gap really has nothing to do with the problem. Let's face it, there are many ways for dust to get into the unit such as when you open the battery cover, through the earphone jack, and around the trackwheel.

Very very good work barjohn. RIM needs to interact with their non-business customers and you are the link to them for all of us. Thank you.

Did they specifically acknowledge that the bluetooth was dysfunctional in any way? Can you tell us exactly what they said on this?

What they acknowledged on Bluetooth was that it has not been tested with every vehicle or headset and that given the idiocyncracies of these devices they could not guarantee compatability but they intended to fix as many as reasonably possible.

I wonder if they will get more people complaining about cracked screens and work out a resolution for that....

I have not heard of anyone having a cracked screen issue with the 8700, have you?

I was sitting down during class after responding to an email on the 8700.. I went to put my phone in its holster and missed.. it dropped from 2 to 2 1/2 feet on thin carpet.. picked it up and CRACKED SCREEN :(.. cingular doesn't want to replace the unit unless I fork over $225 which is silly when I bought it for $199. had it less than a week..

John thanks for the hard work, we all appreciate you being the bridge to RIM.

Barjohn,

Excellent thread. Thank you for taking the time to do all of this!

That sucks. Dropped mine trying re-live my Skateboarding past (dumb I know), bounced 3 times and slid across the floor (2' - 3' drop), no damage at all, I guess I was REALLY lucky.

John: How about asking Cingular about insurance for smartphones? It seems these are the only devices that it makes sense to insure, other carriers do it. I was told by a rep when I bought my 7100 a few months back it was "On the way" - I was offered it when I bought my 8700, when I pressed the issue to make sure it would actually cover the 8700 the rep realized his mistake and retracted the offer.

hey john, will you also get a timetable of when we will be able to sync with bluetooth? As well as when desktop availability for Mac users. i am in the recording business, and we are all mac users and all have blackberry's and are very frustrated that we cant drag and drop our apps. Thanks man.

You can sync with Bluetooth now on a PC. As for their plans on MAC support, I will ask but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Thank you so much for getting back to us with this detailed update. My most concern is on the dust issue, I'm sure RIM will have this problem resolve but what about for those of us who bought the device before the fix? Is there some way that we can send it back to RIM for repair or will we become RIM's QC testers?

Off the record, I would have to assume that RIM and Cingular would replace the device if it is found to be defective. It would be very easy for both companies to gather a list of buyers and then send out a letter with instructions for replacement.

All I might suggest is that you not worry about paying for a device with this problem. Both Cingular and RIM will make it right. It is their reputation and neither company will want to stick users with a less than quality product.

Once RIM finds the problem and corrects it through manufacturing, we will be notified with options. All I can tell you is that this is a high priority for both companies right now.

Also keep in mind that this is NOT only afected by Cingular's devices. Rogers has the same issue.

Again, this is only my opinion. In no way am I stating something that has been told to me by either company.

John,

Thank you for your help in speaking for the forum users.

Sincerely,

Jaime

Thanks BarJohn, great feedback.

Here's something that has been driving our employees crazy since the first voice-enabled device was released: Can the phone function be exempted from the password requirement we enforce through IT Policy? It's irritating to have to enter a password to make a phone call.

MarkF, good point, I will pass the info on as I get another collection of inputs. I have already sent RIM a two pager today.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/-1)

The 8700* units will most definatly not be UMTS compatible. UMTS is effectivly a high level frame work for a signalling methind known as Wide Band Code Division Multiple Access or WCDMA. The hardware required for the PHY layer (or air interface) for gprs / Wcdma is completly different. So unless you believe that rim will launch a software upgrade that will somehow change the RF related internals, don't hold your breath.

The chip set from Intel used in the 8700 supports this functionality in the hardware. This was confirmed by RIM and Cingular to me yesterday.

On a separate note, RIM has posted the following on Bluetooth compatibility. It will be updated as it has some shortcomings that I have communicated already to RIM management. However, it is a start!

http://www.blackberry.com/knowledgec...?nodeid=858763

I received a response back from RIM management on the individuals names that I sent in that had not heard from RIM nor recieved an 8700 after attending the launch event and they told me they are going through their lists and if they have not already been sent, ones will be sent post haste.

barjohn, thanks for the report. Just to add, on the Cingular forum it is mentioned that the new BIS will be able to handle multiple reply addreses for people who have more than one email address in their acount. Basicaly if you have hotmail and web Outlook then when you reply you will have the choice to use the proper one. This will be very handy to control our emails and having incoming replies to go into the proper mail box.

That's false. The RF internals are ALREADY UMTS compatible. Many sources confirm this. Also even Intel's specification sheet of the Intel chip used inside the 8700. It's just a software upgrade.

Just look at the 7250 and EVDO -- the 7250 was 100% software upgradeable to EVDO a whopping nine months after the release of the 7250. Now Verizon users are able to use BroadbandAccess using the 7250 as a modem for their laptop, see the sticky in General.

I emailed Rich , the guy who wrote the press release about the cingular 3G launch and inquired about the ability and plans for the 8700 to be able to use HSDPA when it is released. He indicated in his short reply that it wont be till late next year till they have a blackberry with HSDPA and that the 8700c isnt capable of that and will require more than just a firmware upgrade.
I am still so torn as to whether to return my 8700 and just go back to my 7290. with the 8700 I am resigning up for 2 years which I am not sure is worth it if they cant tell me that the 8700 will support it for sure. Oh the decisions. I wish we could really get a more definite answer as to whether or not the 8700 will support it and what their plans for rollout are. On the other hand it could be 2 years before they have HSDPA wide spread enough for it to really matter. Hell it took them 2-3 years to get EDGE widly available.

I spoke with two senior executives at RIM and CIngular and I asked the specific question about HSDPA and was told the unit was hardware capable. They did not commit to providing the software or a timetable when it might happen. It really wasn't any different with the 7250 and EVDO. Everyone knew the chip set supported it but no one knew for sure when RIM and VZW would make it available. This chip set was selected because it offers a lot of advanced capability. Much more than the software can take advantage of today but a clear migration path for the future.

I'm curious to what people think the advantages of having HSDPA would be on a BlackBerry- aside from using it as a modem since the value of the unit is the unit itself. EDGE is pretty decent speed for the content usable on the BlackBerry, I think.

T-Mobile has implemented the new BIS. But it will only work with IMAP or POP3 emails systems. It will NOT work with Hotmail, but works instantly with Yahoo Mail (including storing saved items).

I know in my own case the first thing would be the use as a modem without having to have another card and account to take care of and the second would be the faster browser experience.

Its nice to see this much cooperation between a company and consumer. I have yet to get my 8700 (demand is overwhelming here locally), but I sure cant wait to get it. By far, I have spent more time over the last 2 weeks reading reviews about the device then doing my daily activities (including work :p). I greatly appreciate all the reviews and information that is in this community, plus the hard work put forth by the members. John, thanks for the post and up-to date information.

JOHN:
I do not have an 8700, I just switched to Cingular and the 7290 from TMO and a 7100t. Cingular needs to get this BIS upgrade done! It is killing me now that I can not integrate a OWA account that uses Outlook 2003. This worked flawlessly on TMO. BES is not the answer as I have one Exchange account already using BES, and need BIS for the second account. Just keep planting this message in your correspondence please. Thanks

I spoke with RIM management about the Attendee units that fail. Anyone that has a bad unit needs to send me their contact information and I will pass it on to the right party at RIM. RIM will take care of any attendee defective units. I have requested permission to post the contact information and as soon as I get permission I will post it in this thread. In the meantime, PM me if you have a deffective unit with your contact info and I will send it in for you. I inquired about unlock codes for attendee units but do not have an answer for you yet.

I thought I would add my experience with RIM and Cingular. I have had my 8700c for about 2 weeks now. It replaced my 7290. I have a 2003 BMW 330 i with the BMW Bluetooth unit dealer installed. It paired and worked flawlessly with my 7290 (except for the known incompatibility of not using the BB phone book). When I paired it with my 8300, it paired just fine then within a minute the BB spontaneously rebooted and continue to reboot every minute or so thereafter. I have a JABRA 250 headset which works just fine with the 8300.

I called Cingular and was quickly put through to RIM support. For the last week I have been working directly with RIM. They had me run a number of diagnostics and e-mail the log files directly to them. They have been unfailingly courteous, quick to answer the phone and responsive. Today they told me that they've been unable to replicate the problem on any of their units and wanted me to return my unit so that they could troubleshoot it directly. The person I was dealing with said he would contact Cingular while I stayed on the line to arrange for Cingular to send me out a new handheld.

I was put on hold and about 10 minutes later the RIM representative said that the first person he spoke with at Cingular told him that Cingular did not offer the 8700. He finally got through to someone in the right department and after another half-hour we finally got the exchange arranged and my new 8700 should be here sometime next week. Hopefully, my problem is unique to my specific unit.

I must say I have been very impressed with the level of both customer and technical support offered by RIM. My experiences with Cingular
are as always hit and miss. From call to call you just never know whether you will connect with someone who has the requisite knowledge to be of help. But it does seem as if they are trying to improve their customer relations.

I will provide an update as to how my new unit works in my BMW after I have had a chance to try it out.

I have found this group to be an incredibly valuable source of information and I hope to be able to participate when I think that I have something useful to add.