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Old 10-13-2005, 06:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBlackBerry


Which you will lose or will be stolen.

A bad idea...
I used to think you were full of crap about this.

But when I was last in Vegas, an individual with a Treo was putting it back into its hiding place and an SD card fell out of it.

I gave it to them, but I had to wonder how the heck that could even happen. Even so, it DID happen, and who knows what was on that card. It was, after all, Vegas.
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Old 10-14-2005, 07:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Awesome info guys, thanks.

And I do some work with my cities police force, I was speaking to an officer who mentioned there was an organized gang that created an encryption program for the bb so that if they were arrested and their bb seized the police could not decipher the messages that were passed between the other bb users on either end. I know nothing of encryptions but I thought it was interesting and not sure how that would even apply to this, if at all :P
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Old 10-26-2005, 10:21 PM   #23 (permalink)
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high tech gangs.........hmmmm.....nothing is just simple anymore.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:31 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Rim just needs to split its product line in the future for "secure" devices and "non-secure". So there could be an 8700cS that doesn't have removable memory and no camera and then there could be an 8700cN that has the SD card slot and full BT profiles and digital camera built in.

This is the only way they can really do it. Because it isn't just about the security of the data on the removable media card, but gov building don't want devices that take those cards inside cause its then easier to steal or compromise data from another system. Same reason they don't want cameras. So gov employees who work there simply wouldn't be allowed to own such devices. I understand this and it bothers me when I read a review of the 8700c and the guy mentions that an obvious shortcoming of it is no camera built in. Many enterprises don't want their employees carrying around a phone that can snap photos so it isn't a shortcoming.

The solution is to continue developing and improving things on the handheld without these features but also make a model that includes these features to hit the home/small office or not as security conscious market.
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:37 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inphektion
This is the only way they can really do it.
A different brand is necessary, such as "BerryMedia" because those models of the 8700 can be easily confused with each other, or the purchase of Palm (there are rumors) and using Palm to make the consumer devices.

It's easier to say "BlackBerries are allowed, but no BerryMedia devices or Palm devices are allowed" than to open up the devices to check if there's a SD card slot behind the SIM card.
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:42 AM   #26 (permalink)
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that berrymedia is a good idea..honestly i will give up all the bell's and whistles for a product that works all the time and i dont have to constantly be on the phone with a tech..
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Old 11-15-2005, 11:22 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon
A different brand is necessary, such as "BerryMedia" because those models of the 8700 can be easily confused with each other, or the purchase of Palm (there are rumors) and using Palm to make the consumer devices.

It's easier to say "BlackBerries are allowed, but no BerryMedia devices or Palm devices are allowed" than to open up the devices to check if there's a SD card slot behind the SIM card.

I agree. Different brand, name, whatever. they just need to split instead instead of trying to walk this fine line of secure vs features...
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Old 11-15-2005, 01:47 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I guess I don't understand the point of some of this 'I can break the code conversation'. I can smash open your blackberry, pull off the chips and read them directly. Takes a little extra hardware, but do-able.

There will always be data recovery technology out there that can get your data. Ever seen how the FAA manages to get data off computer memory chips after sitting at the bottom of the ocean for a month and the computer smashed to bits?

Blackberries in their current form are not secure devices to any sort of NSA cryptographic standards (beyond 4 or maybe 3). A blackberry is not a STUIII phone! Also, when you wipe a blackberry I hardly think it is following standards for cleansing the memory to NSA erasure procedures for classified data. I am amused by people making arguments about blackberry security whilst walking around with 2G USB thumbdrives, CD burners on their laptops (with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth), and MP3 players with files on them.

Is a blackberry w/o memory cards more safe than one with memory cards - yes. Is it secure? NO. If someone wanted the data off that bad boy even after being remotely disabled they could get it.

Last edited by jimn367 : 11-15-2005 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 11-15-2005, 02:23 PM   #29 (permalink)
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jimn367, I agree with you completely. This is the kind of security that keeps amatuer crooks from stealing your car, not what it takes to stop a professional.
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Old 11-15-2005, 03:43 PM   #30 (permalink)
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By the way if someone wants your data - they are going to attack the servers, not the clients.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:04 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimn367
I guess I don't understand the point of some of this 'I can break the code conversation'. I can smash open your blackberry, pull off the chips and read them directly. Takes a little extra hardware, but do-able.

There will always be data recovery technology out there that can get your data. Ever seen how the FAA manages to get data off computer memory chips after sitting at the bottom of the ocean for a month and the computer smashed to bits?

Blackberries in their current form are not secure devices to any sort of NSA cryptographic standards (beyond 4 or maybe 3). A blackberry is not a STUIII phone! Also, when you wipe a blackberry I hardly think it is following standards for cleansing the memory to NSA erasure procedures for classified data. I am amused by people making arguments about blackberry security whilst walking around with 2G USB thumbdrives, CD burners on their laptops (with Wi-Fi and Bluetooth), and MP3 players with files on them.

Is a blackberry w/o memory cards more safe than one with memory cards - yes. Is it secure? NO. If someone wanted the data off that bad boy even after being remotely disabled they could get it.
You have to look at this from a different POV. A blackberry without a memory slot is more secure for a government building or secure site because then it can't be used to steal data. Same thing with the camera. You could use the camera to take a pic of a word doc on a screen, etc. This type of security I believe is more important for RIM. Rim doesn't have a memory slot or camera because those devices would NOT sell to all their gov customers or to any customer who has policies of camera in their offices or devices that can easily take data off other computers. The issue is not primarily how hard it is to take data off a blackberry.
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Old 11-16-2005, 10:15 AM   #32 (permalink)
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First, you have to recognize that such policies are nonsense. On our base, you can walk around and use a 4gb USB memory stick but can't have a memory card slot in your BlackBerry??? If you were trying to steal information, how hard so you think it would be to write an application that uses the memory already in the BlackBerry and the USB synching cable to load the data into it and walk out the door? In other words, non of these policies make sense. If you wanted to keep the data secure, you don't allow ANY device in the space, phones, cameras, game players, radios, TVs, etc. becasue these days they all have memory that could be accessed and used to store information. The reality is that people that don't understadn technology often make policy decisions that to a lay person look like they make sense but in reality only create the illusion of security.
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:08 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I have seen many policies on not permitting camera phones. The banning of these devices is a knee-jerk reaction by security departments who are always slow at accepting new technologies. Remember when cell phones were banned? (and they still are in SECURE areas). I completely understand why the BB doesn't have a camera.

I have yet to see a policy from a security department banning removable memory, except in areas where all PDAs, laptops, and cell phones are banned. As I said above, not having removable cards is safer than removable memory, but it is NOT secure.

People keep abusing the word SECURE. A blackberry is not secure (although there are some attempts at developing a secure blackberry by some defense contractors).

I suspect the real reason for not having memory cards was initially blackberry's heritage being two-way pagers vice PDAs. I'm sure the IT concerns are more along the lines of:
1) Users losing the memory cards and it costing $$ to replace
2) Users doing stupid things to the blackberry by loading junk on the card and then shoving it into the blackberry.
3) The ability to remotely disable

From these aspects it is more 'secure' (meaning under IT control). But as blackberry devices get more internal memory and downloadable software you will start seeing the same complaints as PDAs.

Blackberry devices are:
1) More reliable
2) Safer
3) More controllable
than their pda-based counterpartsts and these arguments alone are why IT departments choose them.
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:21 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I know removable memory is a hot topic, but what about increased memory on board? I mean why cant you just have a BB with a higher capacity such 5gb.
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:32 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barjohn
The reality is that people that don't understadn technology often make policy decisions that to a lay person look like they make sense but in reality only create the illusion of security.
YAHTZEE!
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Old 11-16-2005, 11:58 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by europamo
I know removable memory is a hot topic, but what about increased memory on board? I mean why cant you just have a BB with a higher capacity such 5gb.
Yes it [internal memory] would be perceived as more secure, but it shouldn't be. A BB that is software loadable and memory to spare is just as dangerous as removable memory. That is barjohn's point. There is sw available to make a palm's internal memory a USB drive, and the same could be done for a blackberry. BB+ziplink+s/w = security risk.

It the memory were internal it would probably be like an MP3 player where it is an 'off the shelf' card (compact flash, ...) embedded in the device versus surface mounted chips. Anyone willing to steal your memory card for it's information is more than willing to smash the BB and pull out the chip and stick it in a card reader.

As I harped on earlier - external cards have more to do with USER control than real security.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:12 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inphektion
You have to look at this from a different POV. A blackberry without a memory slot is more secure for a government building or secure site because then it can't be used to steal data.
No cell phones are allowed in secure, access controlled areas. Neither are PDAs, MP3 players, cameras, laptops,... The only exception to that is when an area is cleared and declared open with the concurrance of site security. Then they may let users have their phones in an area.

I'm not saying that people don't go into secure areas with cell phones. They are usually violating procedures when they do. Camera, no camera,...
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:24 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimn367

As I harped on earlier - external cards have more to do with USER control than real security.
so what your saying, i guess, is that internal and external are just as dangerous, because of User problems, ie: losing them, theft
I mean that makes sense, but in my point of view that makes nothing secure regardless of hardware/software, because all it takes is one USER to F' that up.
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:18 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think of it this way. I am sure that BB could put a lock on it that you cannot transfer anything from the device to card. Now if you get it in an e-mail attachment then you can save it to the card.

Personally we are all talking about NSA FBI and stuff like that but I think BB wants to also move in and try to get other users. To do that you are going to have to add more things that govt agencies are not going to like.

How about making 2 versions of a device? One for the boring tied down people and then the other that has all the cool bells in it like expandable memory, ca###a

I know the companies that sell the device would get more sales this way but I could be wrong.
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Old 12-08-2005, 03:25 AM   #40 (permalink)
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There are govt agencies and large corporations which have said they will walk away from BlackBerry the minute cameras and expansion slots are introduced. These companies are so important they are dealt with directly by RIM and therefore dictate the way the technology moves....and rightly so due to their importance. Think about it, why else would RIM licence the BlackBerry software to Nokia and Sony Ericsson and so on....at least this means people who have the 'permission' of their companies to use devices with media and storage facilities can by using non-RIM hardware. This at least retains a slice of the cake for RIM, while serviceing the needs of every potential user. I don't know why we continue to debate this!!!!!!
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