[Sakman]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

You know, I really get tired of all these "it is flashy" or "lured by the candy" posts, and I'm not even the one switching! The BB is lacking on all sorts of very real and substantive fronts compared to any modern PDA. It isn't "candy" it is a quite straightforward lack of features and options.

Something like being able to send and read HTML formatted emails is hardly a matter of "candy" it is in many cases the difference between legible, and illegible!

By the same token, I can make lists of entire careers where you practically can't use a BB, because there isn't a single business tool to address that segment, where a Treo (be it Palm or Windows Mobile) has scores of apps targeted at that segment.

The inadequate language support of the BB makes it almost unusable for anyone who does international business.

The lack of any way to view inline graphics in an email makes it cumbersome for anyone who has to deal with any bulk of images for their work.

The refusal of RIM to provide a way to securely integrate the device with any standards-based IMAP server is bordering on insane.

The minimal GPS support makes it a poor choice for location based applications.

The almost nonexistent media capabilities make it next to useless for creative professionals.

The BB is very good at what it does, but it doesn't do much. Sure, the new 8100 addresses some of these things, but these are all things that haven't been a problem on Palm or Windows Mobile for literally years! Yes, the BB is stable, but then a pocket calculator is really stable compared to a PC. It is easy to maintain stability and battery life when your device has a fraction of the features of every other device on the market.

If all you need is a PIM, a phone, and basic email, then the BB is fantastic, but if you need anything more than that, then moving away from the BB isn't a matter of being "lured by fancy features" it is a necessity! You could wait half a career for RIM to get around to implementing a feature you want. Just look at how long people have been asking for removable storage.

Kinda sad but this is one of the best posts I've read in a minute. And becka, if I could have synched up my Sidekick with Outlook, I would have never left. Lmlloyd, thank you sir.

[headtailgrep]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

The BB is lacking on all sorts of very real and substantive fronts compared to any modern PDA. It isn't "candy" it is a quite straightforward lack of features and options.

Whoa, some intelligence just dropped by.. this should be good. *sits down*

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

The inadequate language support of the BB makes it almost unusable for anyone who does international business.

And how does this translate (!) to market share? How many people does this really add up to that cannot use their company supplied laptop for international business?

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

The lack of any way to view inline graphics in an email makes it cumbersome for anyone who has to deal with any bulk of images for their work.

And how would a Treo/etc handle images any better? The screen resolution is half VGA at best. How could viewing images on any platform be anything better than a basic preview?

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

The refusal of RIM to provide a way to securely integrate the device with any standards-based IMAP server is bordering on insane.

Explain. I don't have much IMAP experience myself, and it appears to be supported in BIS 2.0. Why is it inadequate to you?

I surely don't enjoy using the Treo 600's pop3 client, and having to reply on (then) poor third party tools to get the job done was a highly frustrating experience. Not to mention the insane amounts of data usage.. (we don't have truely unlimited data here in Canada on any platform!)

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

The minimal GPS support makes it a poor choice for location based applications.

This is true, but it is changing. Applications with GPS appear to be on the very near horizon. You can also bet RIM's solution will be data minimalistic too.

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

The almost nonexistent media capabilities make it next to useless for creative professionals.

Also true, but again, what device can truely bring the media experience to a PDA sized device? I hardly expect to be using Windows Movie Maker on a Windows Mobile device in the near future. I'm certain any creative professional will have a laptop to perform these tasks. For now, all anyone can do is listen to mp3's and watch low quality highly compressed videos on a really small screen..

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

It is easy to maintain stability and battery life when your device has a fraction of the features of every other device on the market.

I suppose, that's the point of the RIM solution. Wireless Data networks have not yet caught up to the desktop, RIM knows this and has designed a solution that minimizes data usage. Battery life with RIM has always been measured in days, when their competitors only recently caught up. These combine to bring us the minimalistic feature set of the RIM design.

To add to the data network issue -- I can easily see where data networks cease to offer 'unlimited plans' and where every kilobyte on a data network becomes a commodity. in Canada there are no truly unlimited plans (all have a cieling of some sort on the Rogers network and they do not appear to be budging). You can also bet the RIM solution will ensure you do not overuse your data connection.

A tethered(or untethered) unlimited broadband connection over the Cell network isn't going to happen anytime soon, despite my best wishes.. (connect to your laptop for example)

RIM has focused on the delivery of e-mail and some essential data services. They are slowly opening up to additional features as the line between a PDA and a PC continues to blur, but there is a long way to go yet.

The way I see it, if your device can't do what you want, you can always revert to an alternative means. There are many solutions that offer 'PDA' sized versions of themselves that the Blackberry cannot offer, or that other platforms have had for much longer, but every time I try them i never bother using them. I didn't get a blackberry to replace my computer, it compliments it.

Nonetheless your points are valid on many fronts, and in the end, we all have the right to choose =)

[cynep]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

You know, I really get tired of all these "it is flashy" or "lured by the candy" posts, and I'm not even the one switching! The BB is lacking on all sorts of very real and substantive fronts compared to any modern PDA. It isn't "candy" it is a quite straightforward lack of features and options.

Something like being able to send and read HTML formatted emails is hardly a matter of "candy" it is in many cases the difference between legible, and illegible!

By the same token, I can make lists of entire careers where you practically can't use a BB, because there isn't a single business tool to address that segment, where a Treo (be it Palm or Windows Mobile) has scores of apps targeted at that segment.

The inadequate language support of the BB makes it almost unusable for anyone who does international business.

The lack of any way to view inline graphics in an email makes it cumbersome for anyone who has to deal with any bulk of images for their work.

The refusal of RIM to provide a way to securely integrate the device with any standards-based IMAP server is bordering on insane.

The minimal GPS support makes it a poor choice for location based applications.

The almost nonexistent media capabilities make it next to useless for creative professionals.

The BB is very good at what it does, but it doesn't do much. Sure, the new 8100 addresses some of these things, but these are all things that haven't been a problem on Palm or Windows Mobile for literally years! Yes, the BB is stable, but then a pocket calculator is really stable compared to a PC. It is easy to maintain stability and battery life when your device has a fraction of the features of every other device on the market.

If all you need is a PIM, a phone, and basic email, then the BB is fantastic, but if you need anything more than that, then moving away from the BB isn't a matter of being "lured by fancy features" it is a necessity! You could wait half a career for RIM to get around to implementing a feature you want. Just look at how long people have been asking for removable storage.

I agree with about 90% of your statement. Tho, playing a devil's advocate I'd say that if you require such an advanced functionality as multimedia, I'd certainly hope you'd be able to afford at least a laptop and EVDO adapter.

People mistake BB for a computer - which it really wasn't intended to be. It was a device that was intended to address email while being away from your computer. Nothing more. People are looking to BB as a replacement for laptop or pc - which it ain't and long way off.

If you look at how far BB has come along - from simple monochrome text device to internet-capable gizmo, capable (somewhat) of browzing the web, I'd say that it has exceeded in initial expectations.

However, given advances in technology, I'd say that in the next 10-20 years you'd see retinal implants that would give you a big-screen TV like visual experience, with motion-sensitive virtual air keyboard (think of air guitar but in this case a computer keyboard), and implanted pc with wireless internet capability chip glued to the back of your neck.

This way you can eat, breathe, and excrete internet and computing 24/7.

My personal reasons for wanting to have a BB - it is purely for addressing my customer's emails while being away from my laptop. My laptop has EVDO adapter and if I need to do something as intensive as emailing an attachment - I'd use a laptop for it.

Though we are entering a very real and present danger - addiction to computing, email, internet. How many of you while attending some social functions are constantly distracted by your BB?

Do you feel "naked" when BB's battery is dead or you left it at home? Do you think "oh how did I exist without it?"

just some food for thought...

[cynep]

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

A tethered(or untethered) unlimited broadband connection over the Cell network isn't going to happen anytime soon, despite my best wishes.. (connect to your laptop for example)

*cough* linky: ABC News: Verizon Releases New High-Speed BlackBerry *cough*

wish granted! Next!!!

//edit: slight correction - it may not be available in Canada.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

And how does this translate (!) to market share? How many people does this really add up to that cannot use their company supplied laptop for international business?

If you have to carry around your laptop to be able to read an email from a business contact, then how is the BB anything more than a toy that beeps when you get an email. In my opinion, paying $20 a month (minimum) for a service that just beeps to let you know when you have to haul out your notebook to check your email isn't a very good value.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

And how would a Treo/etc handle images any better? The screen resolution is half VGA at best. How could viewing images on any platform be anything better than a basic preview?

Resolution has very little to do with it. If someone emails you ten logo concepts, you don't need anything more than a thumbnail to see which one you like. To have to view each one separately, just to figure out that you only actually wanted to look at one of them, is by definition cumbersome.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

Explain. I don't have much IMAP experience myself, and it appears to be supported in BIS 2.0. Why is it inadequate to you?

I surely don't enjoy using the Treo 600's pop3 client, and having to reply on (then) poor third party tools to get the job done was a highly frustrating experience. Not to mention the insane amounts of data usage.. (we don't have truely unlimited data here in Canada on any platform!)

First, the IMAP support offered by BIS is incomplete at best, and really is not substantially different from their POP support, just using a different protocol.

Secondly, there are many reasons a business might not want their private email going through BIS. All the arguments for security that apply to BES don't suddenly go away just because a company chooses some email server other than Exchange or Domino. Yet the entire BlackBerry model is built around the somewhat insane notion that any company that is worried about security will have no problem reworking their entire corporate email system around the BB. Once upon a time it might have been true that the only way to handle email securely was through special proprietary connections to a proprietary mail server. However, it is 2006, and there is nothing the BB does that couldn't be done through open standards that would work with any email server.

Oh, and if you don't like the supplied email client on the Treo or a Windows Mobile device, there are plenty of others to try. Some of them quite good. I haven't paid for anything but unlimited data for several years, so really don't care how much the device pulls.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

This is true, but it is changing. Applications with GPS appear to be on the very near horizon. You can also bet RIM's solution will be data minimalistic too.

On the horizon, a good five years after it became a well supported Palm OS option. I'm sorry, I had a really nice GPS solution working back on my old Handspring Visor! It didn't even have color, and I think it had a whopping 8MB of memory, and it had street-level GPS maps. This is just another example of how you could get old waiting for RIM to support a feature you want to see.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

Also true, but again, what device can truely bring the media experience to a PDA sized device? I hardly expect to be using Windows Movie Maker on a Windows Mobile device in the near future. I'm certain any creative professional will have a laptop to perform these tasks. For now, all anyone can do is listen to mp3's and watch low quality highly compressed videos on a really small screen..

Once again, not the point. I'm not talking about "the media experience" on a handheld. I'm talking about being able to show people what you do for business. You can talk all day, and still not be able to describe what you do to someone, when showing them even a couple second clip on a 320 x 240 screen makes them go "oh, I see what you are talking about now." If I'm at lunch with a potential client and he says "I'd really like to see some of your work," even a 320 x 240 video is better than saying "I'll send you some of it as soon as I get back to the office." And it isn't even just creative professionals. I know plenty of real estate agents who couldn't do their job without their Treo, and a BB certainly doesn't cut it. We aren't just talking about viewing videos here. The ability to attach an image or sound to an email is part of this too.

I don't know who it is that just walks around all day with a laptop, but as I have said for the second time now, I don't really see the value of the BB if every time I need to do anything, I need to pull out a laptop.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

I suppose, that's the point of the RIM solution. Wireless Data networks have not yet caught up to the desktop, RIM knows this and has designed a solution that minimizes data usage. Battery life with RIM has always been measured in days, when their competitors only recently caught up. These combine to bring us the minimalistic feature set of the RIM design.

Battery life is an important factor, but let's not pretend it is as big a gap as you make it sound. An 8700 gets about twice the battery life of a Treo. It isn't like the 8700 goes for days of heavy use while the Treo only lasts ten minutes! Besides, carrying around an extra battery is a LOT easier than carrying around an extra laptop.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

To add to the data network issue -- I can easily see where data networks cease to offer 'unlimited plans' and where every kilobyte on a data network becomes a commodity. in Canada there are no truly unlimited plans (all have a cieling of some sort on the Rogers network and they do not appear to be budging). You can also bet the RIM solution will ensure you do not overuse your data connection.

I just don't see this ever happening (at least in America). In this country, the market has clearly spoken, time and time again. People just don't go for the per-KB model here, and the unlimited data plan always wins out, even when it is actually more expensive. I don't see any situation where service providers will take a huge step backwards and go back to a per-KB model. If they did, people would just hop over to municipal WiFi.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

A tethered(or untethered) unlimited broadband connection over the Cell network isn't going to happen anytime soon, despite my best wishes.. (connect to your laptop for example)

I hate to break it to you, but depending on market, it is already here. Besides, in a good number of cities, providers are having to start competing with muni WiFi, and that is most certainly an unlimited broadband connection, if not over cell.

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

RIM has focused on the delivery of e-mail and some essential data services. They are slowly opening up to additional features as the line between a PDA and a PC continues to blur, but there is a long way to go yet.

The way I see it, if your device can't do what you want, you can always revert to an alternative means. There are many solutions that offer 'PDA' sized versions of themselves that the Blackberry cannot offer, or that other platforms have had for much longer, but every time I try them i never bother using them. I didn't get a blackberry to replace my computer, it compliments it.

Nonetheless your points are valid on many fronts, and in the end, we all have the right to choose =)

That is all well and good, and obviously that fits a market from RIM's success. However, I will point out that the processor, memory, and storage of the average PDA exceeds the specs of the first business laptops! It was all well and good to argue that a PDA was a compliment to a computer back when they were packing an underpowered Motorola processor, but at the point where we are all carrying around what basically amounts to a Pentium with 64MB of RAM and an ISDN connection in our pocket, it rings a little hollow to say that you shouldn't want it to replace your computer. Why shouldn't you? We all used to do quite a bit of work on systems with far worse specs. My point is that there are a lot of very valid reasons why a serious professional might need features that RIM is either unable, or unwilling to provide. I fail to see why those professionals need to be berated for "falling for a pretty face" or "being lured away by candy," when all they want is a device that addresses the reality of their needs.

[Tri-Tip]

I use my Blackberry to Read & reply to E-Mail, Keep my Calendar Sync'd with my desktop, keep my contacts, and talk on the phone and that's it.

I don't need to edit Office documents, take picutres, so for me the Blackberry is the idea device.

[headtailgrep]

Without a long drawn out message, i agree with many of Lloyd points. Very good stuff.. i'm obviously not in his shoes, the blackberry does for me what i want it to do..

The one defining difference between the US and Canada is what i would call the "all you can eat" mentality. In canada, we get a lot of it too, but for some reason, our carriers just don't bother to offer such a thing.

Now, consider this: When native VOIP clients come out for wireless devices, do you honestly think carriers will continue a true 'unlimited' data plan?

I'm all for a laptop replacement on a Blackberry, but it would have to be based on Open standards for me to have any interest in it. There are very few PDA's that even come close to offering that..

Great discussion..

[rambo47]

Ya know, the Treo Central forums are just like this forum. Only about Treos. But the same flavor. Old salts constantly admonishing the newbies to search, or RTFM. Lots of tips, tricks, and just as much speculation and anticipation over new models. Looks like according to the stats posted somewhere or other that the new Treo 750 will weigh in at a relatively svelt 126 grams, down from a pudgy 150 grams for the previous models. Hey, it's a step in the right direction.

[Dawg]

I love the folks that say youll be back. I put my BB down what 8 or 9 months ago and I havent looked back. I am sporting the i930 and love it especially since I bought the keyboard adapter.

[cdysthe]

Originally Posted by Milkman

Well, I think it may be official...

I think I may be leaving the Blackberry world for a TREO. I love my Blackberry (the durability, the e-mail PUSH, etc.), but the TREO has soo many more features, plus I can use it with EV-DO. Unfortuantely the newest BB Sprint has is the 7130 which is 100 years old, and is Suretype. My brother came down and he has a Treo, and the first thing that amazed me was the screen. It was CRYSTAL clear. I was completely shocked on how nice the screen was. Plus all of the cool features it just seems like a much better fit for me.

I will still be hanging around these forums (if I do decide to go for sure), but right now it looks like I will be making the jump :(

I have tried them all. A long list. But when it comes to getting the job done, my 8700g is the device I return to. It may not have the brightest screen. It may not have all the cool features. However, what it has is what I need and it never fails to amaze me how effective my BB is in simply doing what it's good at better than anything else out there.

My daughter has a Sidekick 3. My wife has a Treo so I have them both in my family But I would not part with my bulky 8700g for any of those even if I got paid to do so!



//C

[rambo47]

My wife wants a Treo. She's using an LG flip phone of some kind, not a smart phone at all. She saw what I could do with my Treo and I swear I could see the lightbulb go on above her head. Now that I'm back on the 'Berry Bandwagon it's gonna be a 2-platform household. With me as the IT geek-in-residence. Having done Treos recently it shouldn't be such a chore, and I can still undulge my fascination with that other platform through her. I just wonder how long until my 13-year old daughter decides she "needs" a SideKick.

[bcoutlander]

Originally Posted by Milkman

lol - why do you say that...

Although I can tell you, if Blackberry can get a screen like the Treo, with all of the features, and on Sprint, you are most certainly correct. Unfortunately it appears that RIM is decades behind the 8-ball when it comes to modern technology. Like I said before, I love my Blackberry, but this phone seems to be a much better fit.

Heh... I am in the process of the Treo 700p -> BB7130e switch on Sprint. I really love being able to multi-task on the BB. Also, I can type just as fast if not faster with SureType vs. the Treo keyboard. The larger keys on the 7130 help for me anyway. Also, I really like the way BIS now integrates with my GMail account it is really nice to delete something on my BB and have it deleted on GMail at the same time. I just really like how everything just works on the BB and doesn't require constant tinkering; kind of like my macs....

Don't get me wrong, I think the 700p is the best Treo yet and I have been using Treos for the last 3 years(600>650>700). I will be keeping my 700 on my desk waiting to try out when a new firmware comes out and see if that fixes some of the issues I am having with BT and random resets. But, for now I am going to stick with my 7130 and enjoy BT that works without static and device that won't reset on incoming calls at random.

[jibi]

Originally Posted by Milkman

I will still be hanging around these forums (if I do decide to go for sure), but right now it looks like I will be making the jump :(

You best not be going anywhere, even if you don't use a BlackBerry! You can't break up the mini-sub-community we have all to ourselves! We have some of the longest topics on the forum, and they have absolutely NOTHING to do with BlackBerry handhelds. We're kind of like a family within a family within a family...

P.S. - I spent $350 on various Auburn stuff today at Big Blue Bookstore in Auburn - a giant $70 cloth-stitched flag (I live in the middle of two Alabama fans on either side and two more across the street, a $65 Under Armour hoodie/sweatshirt (later in the season), a $55 Under Armour grid-pattern polo, a $30 Under Armour t-shirt (youth large, so I can show off my massive pecs!), etc. Hell, they gave me quite a bit of free crap as well! hahah!

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by headtailgrep

Without a long drawn out message, i agree with many of Lloyd points. Very good stuff.. i'm obviously not in his shoes, the blackberry does for me what i want it to do..

The one defining difference between the US and Canada is what i would call the "all you can eat" mentality. In canada, we get a lot of it too, but for some reason, our carriers just don't bother to offer such a thing.

Now, consider this: When native VOIP clients come out for wireless devices, do you honestly think carriers will continue a true 'unlimited' data plan?

I'm all for a laptop replacement on a Blackberry, but it would have to be based on Open standards for me to have any interest in it. There are very few PDA's that even come close to offering that..

Great discussion..

Well, as I said, I'm not the one switching. I just came back to an 8700 after about a year and a half to two years of not using a BlackBerry. I am pretty happy with the 8700, and it will work. However, not a day goes buy that I don't curse the thing for missing some feature or another, and if it hadn't been for money, I would have gone a different way.

Of course, to be fair I am probably the kind of person that the UMPC platform is made for once it matures a little bit. I doubt any PDA will ever 100% satisfy me, because I just have so many requirements. I am actually not too fond of the Treo for a number of reasons, but I can totally see how it would be a much better fit for some people than a BB.