[SanFrancisco]

That one site made an interesting point: how will the iPhone do once it has been out for a year or so when the prices drop down to where the average person can afford it.

I don't think the average Joe will want it because of all the flaws I mentioned before.

Moreover, absent the cool look that we all like when something first comes out, the average user will compare the iPhone with all the other phones out there that play multi-media. In that process the iPhone will be perceived as an average device, at best.

Perhaps the most significant indicator that I am right, I'm looking at my Pearl as I type and it causes me to not even think about cheating on her.

The iPhone's siren song ain't playing on my Pearl.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

http://www.heartinsanfrancisco.com/aniofftopic.gif You are right. I have seen many a settlement go up in flames because of something someone said.

Even though business litigation involves big money and faceless corporations, there are human beings paying the lawyers. Sometimes the client will take things personal and fight on just because they personally hate the opposing party.

I have seen parties close to settling, the lawyers effectively calming down their respective clients, only to see them practically coming to blows when meeting face to face or reading something offensive in a letter, for example.

Some decision maker could very well take offense to an Apple rep publicly saying to the media that Cisco's lawsuit is silly. That implies that the Cisco decision maker is silly. I could see the decision maker the next morning telling his lawyers to turn up the heat and saying to heck with trying to settle the case.

Does it happen? Yes. But, all speculation aside, not at this level. These megacorp's are constantly in litigation. Only a novice, thin-skinned point person would have their feathers ruffled over something as ... well, silly ... as characterizing a suit as 'silly'. As a matter of fact, that specific term is used quite frequently in the early stages, just as it is here. It's garden variety posturing and anyone directly experienced in the process has been witness to it on more than one occassion.

Moving on ...

[GMK]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Does it happen? Yes. But, not at this level. These megacorp's aconstantly in litigation. Only a novice, thin-skinned point person would have their feathers ruffled over something as ... well, silly ... as characterizing a suit as 'silly'. As a matter of fact, that specific term is used quite frequently in the early stages, just as it is here. It's garden variety posturing and anyone directly experienced in the process has been witness to it on more than one occassion.

With slight reservation, I have to somewhat disagree. I've worked with a number of very successful fortune 500 execs and I would say that more often than not, they take these things very personally, even in the face of logic and cost. In the end, they may get reasonable but not until they're through pawing the ground and snorting. Even then, they'll likely shoot the messenger(s). Jobs and Chambers are two high powered, creative guys and there's really no telling where they might be coming from. Posturing, sure! Serious, not sure. It wouldn't be far fetched to imagine these billionaires have a one dollar bet going on the outcome.

I predict a negotiated settlement, but after all the sabres they have are rattled

[busterkat]

"Like many others, I have been sucked into the chaotic hoopla surrounding the freshly unveiled iphone. Let me first say that I am a loyal Macintosh advocate of about ten years and also an employee of Cingular Wireless. My current position is a Tier 2 call center technician and I don't care for Cingular as an employer or a provider. Truthfully, if nauseates me to work for these corporate fascists, but until my conviction outweighs the mortgage, I'll swipe my badge and march into cubical hell each morning.

With the exception of my employment choices, i do have my priorities in order. That is why I called in sick yesterday, stayed in my pajamas and fervently read Macworld's Keynote updates all day on my glorious 24" imac. The pictures of the iphone blew me out of the water and when Steve announced Cingular as the exclusive provider, I almost choked on my Top Ramen! Steve, Steve, did you really just say that?

I was shocked by this announcement for a number of reasons. Firstly, as a Cingular employee, I knew NOTHING about the iphone. I realize that apple wouldn't have allowed Cingular to blow their secret on a bunch of moronic call center reps prior to the release, but we didn't have so much as a clue. Cingular is very thorough in it's marketing/sales tactics and employees receive hours of training on products and features months before they are available to the public. They transform most of us into feature swindlers and price gougers hiding behind the friendly guise of a "customer advocate." Most Cingular employees truly think that they are helping the customer by offering higher rate plans and $5 ringtones, they really do. But there are those of us who see through the capitalistic tripe, ignore the protocol and help out the customer with THEIR best interest in mind.

But the thing that shocked me most, was to see Apple release a locked and branded phone only available with a ball and chain 2 year contract. To me this totally contradicts Apple's often defiant, pioneering attitude. How can a company claiming to "think different" not allow it's customers to choose their own cell carrier? Apple generally creates hardware that stands on it's own and supports itself without help from anyone. Why isn't the iphone sold at the apple store unlocked and ready to accept any provider's sim card? This is not thinking different, they are doing the thinking for us and robbing us of our individual freedom to choose. This is cellphone communism.

It's not only a matter of consumer principal here, but the whole looming idea of Apple having a partnership with someone. To me it shows weakness. Apple has always stood on their own two legs without any support from outside affiliation, and that is what fans love so much. They are a revolutionary, American company not afraid to break rules or push boundaries...and who do they partner with? Cingular, The most hated cellular provider in the world. The only reason Cingular has the most customers is due to the absorption of all at@t customers after the merger. Take it from the horse's mouth, former at@t customers are NOT happy and as soon as their contracts start expiring, they're going to bounce!

I don't even have time to get into how Apple represents everything that Cingular isn't, most of you already know anyway. The perfect illustration of how wrong this partnership is, can be viewed in the keynote itself. The show kicked off with a charismatic Jobs strolling around in tennis shoes, making jokes and charming the audience with explosive anticipation. This was followed by the unveiling of cool, new products that eventually lead up to the climactic explosion of the iphone's presentation. Steve knows what he's doing. He is a showman in ceo's clothing. He knows what Apple loyalists want and he delivers.

After all the hype and iphone explanations, Steve introduced his new partner, Stan Sigman, ceo of Cingular. When I heard his name, my heart dropped and I began to cringe as he awkwardly sauntered into position. See, I know who the guy is because I have to watch his propagandist videos and delete his mind-numbing emails on a daily basis. This guy is as boring as rock and as socially awkward as a home-schooled Jehovah's Witness at the prom. For crying out loud, the suit read from handheld note-cards! He fumbled his way through a few in-sincere thank yous and turned the rest of his stage-time into a five minute long Cingular commercial. I know that his diatribe was blasphemous on Apple's grand stage, but a part of me couldn't help but feel sorry for him. He was so awkward, nervous and out of place in his brand new Cingular-embroidered suit. When he finally stopped talking and shook hands with Steve, I couldn't help but notice the symbolism in two polar opposites representing completely different worlds awkwardly coming together.

The next day I rushed to work, hoping to receive new iphone training, some pamphlets, or at least a few informative emails. All I got was one lousy mass-email from ol' Stan with a very brief summary of the iphone's exclusiveness to Cingular. Oh yeah, and a link to some generic "talking points" for customers who ask about the iphone. It's filled with some doozies too. From what I can tell, Cingular is going to milk Apple's name for all it's worth in an attempt to appear as "cutting edge" and "revolutionary" as Apple is. It's kind of like Apple is a friends cooler, older brother that Cingular wants to be friends with.

Now onto what I know about the cellular business and what may happen with Apple and Cingular. Steve said that the phones are going to be in both Apple and Cingular stores. This could possibly be our red haring, but just maybe. Steve only briefly mentioned the partnership with Cingular and then changed the subject as if he didn't want to place too much emphasis on it. (Most likely because he knew what our response would be) Sigman is the one who will be playing up the whole partnership thing to lure people into Cingular with Apples top-notch hardware. I think if iphones could ONLY be used with Cingular, they would ONLY be sold through Cingular retail channels. Steve didn't ever say anything about the iphone ONLY working with Cingular. He didn't even say that the phone was locked. This whole "Cingular only" thing may only be what Stan Sigman wants us to think. And you can guarantee that Cingular will do everything in it's power to make people think it's the truth.

Getting cellular service is not an easy task like stopping in for a Big Mac and fries. You have to jump through all kinds of hoops with contracts, paper work, rate plans, credit checks, sim cards, imei numbers, hotline acceptance, photo id's and tons of other junk. Trust me, this is my job and I have to deal with this kind of nightmare on a daily basis. Actually obtaining an account and then getting it activated is the most complicated obstical one will face throughout their cellular experience. This is when entire address books are mistakenly cleared, sim cards erased and customer's lose their minds in a screaming, raging fury. I don't see any of this ever happening in the surreal environment of an Apple store.

If these phones were Cingular only with a two year contract that would mean that a Cingular employee staff would permanently be stationed in the Apple store along with everything required to activate new service. It's not a simple matter of putting a Cingular sim card in the box and sending them on their way, it is a gigantic, nightmare process. I can't foresee Apple allowing their stores to become a chaotic circus-stage with hundreds of angry customers lined up and demanding cellular service. It just won't happen. So that means that one of two things is going to happen:

1. The iphones sold at the Apple store will be unlocked, though not announced or emphasized whatsoever. Perhaps they will come with a Cingular leaflet suggesting some price plans or even insinuations that the phone will only work with Cingular service. Kind of like Apple's way of saying, don't ask, don't tell.

2. The iphones will be sold locked, only capable of working with Cingular service. It will come with something saying, "take this phone to a Cingular store and they will set you up with a plan," that kind of thing. If this is the case, it is nothing more than a slap on the wrist and some 14 year old hacker will break the code and post detailed how-to instructions on Digg the next day. Everybody wins. (As a sidenote, a common misconception is that the cellular provider has the unlock code for the device. In reality, only the manufacturer of the has this code and the cellular provider must obtain it from them.)

I think that it is a VERY good sign that the iphone is available for purchase from either Apple or Cingular. There is distinct difference between the two stores and there has to be a reason for it. Even if the iphones were sold unlocked from Apple stores, Cingular would still win huge and Sigman knows that. Just think of all the places where there are Cingular stores and no Apple stores. Practically everywhere! Most people think phone-phone store. The majority of people are uninformed sheep and will flock to Cingular in droves ready to sign whatever they have to in order to leave with a stylish new iphone in their pocket. Smart consumers and of course Apple loyalists will purchase their phone's from the Apple store, hopefully unlocked and rejoice in the fact that we make decisions with intellect, not emotion. So regardless of how things play out. BUY YOUR IPHONE FROM APPLE, NOT CINGULAR.

In the long run, I am happy with Apple's decision to create the iphone. It shall blow away all the complicated pda-smart phone pieces of rubbish and pave the way for a simpler communicative future. Let's hope we can beat this Cingular thing and given the reasons listed above, I think we have a really good chance. As far as I'm concerned, Cingular has only raised the bar once, and that was yesterday. A partnership with Apple is the best business move that they ever could have done. And for Apple? Well, we'll see. Thanks for reading and i hope you all


think different.

-jolly roger, wrench in the sprocket." from blacklist1977's Xanga Site

[GMK]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

That one site made an interesting point: how will the iPhone do once it has been out for a year or so when the prices drop down to where the average person can afford it.

I don't think the average Joe will want it because of all the flaws I mentioned before.

Moreover, absent the cool look that we all like when something first comes out, the average user will compare the iPhone with all the other phones out there that play multi-media. In that process the iPhone will be perceived as an average device, at best.

Perhaps the most significant indicator that I am right, I'm looking at my Pearl as I type and it causes me to not even think about cheating on her.

The iPhone's siren song ain't playing on my Pearl.

Funny, I use a siren as one of my ringtones. I hope that isn't a harbinger of misfortune.

I don't think that logical evaluations necessarily apply here. In the market group that this phone will appeal to (MP3 on the hip types, Gen xers, Gen yers) a lot of inherent sins will be forgiven the iPhone as it will likely be perceived as THE gizmo to have. Look at the initial buzz for the Razr. Arguments can be made that there are better music machines than the iPod, but, its a gotta have device for many. So it will be with the iPhone. Hype carries more weight than form, fit and function and this baby willed be hyped to beat the band. Apple's on a media roll, they know it and many will want it.

Even though the morning after - hype hangover has set in I still think it is, at first look, a pretty nifty device. Love to touch and feel one.

[GMK]

busterkat,

One hell of a write up. Well worth reading in its entirety. very insightful

A couple of points:

1. I agree that the exclusive partnership with Cingular is certainly not the best for us consumers who want choice. Bad show Steve.

2. My purchase of the 8100 was through TMO and the sale-to-out-the-door process wasn't anything like you're describing which leads me to believe that either TMO has it figured out or the activation/paperwork process is hidden to the customer. I recollect popping in the sim card, a few minutes on the computer and I was out the door.

3. You state: "But the thing that shocked me most, was to see Apple release a locked and branded phone only available with a ball and chain 2 year contract. To me this totally contradicts Apple's often defiant, pioneering attitude."

I think most would agree that Apples's proprietary lock on music sold through its iTunes store is a bit ball and chainish also. I believe Apple is on the carpet in some non-Us countries for this perceived monopolistic behavior. Perhaps we have a meeting of soul-mates here.

4. I think it will be very interesting to see Cingular's take on what the traffic will bear for rate plans. I'll bet it ain't goin down.

[SanFrancisco]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Does it happen? Yes. But, all speculation aside, not at this level. These megacorp's are constantly in litigation. Only a novice, thin-skinned point person would have their feathers ruffled over something as ... well, silly ... as characterizing a suit as 'silly'. As a matter of fact, that specific term is used quite frequently in the early stages, just as it is here. It's garden variety posturing and anyone directly experienced in the process has been witness to it on more than one occassion.

Moving on ...

Disagree, history is full of examples where business "titans" have taken things personal and fought in the alley. Why? Because money means nothing to them so they can afford to drag out the fight because they have taken personal offense at whatever.

I won't go into detail, but in 2006 there have been plenty of business disputes that escalated because of some offhand remark someone made before or during the litigation.

A few years back Mattel got into a heated battle with a major recording label over a signed artist referring to "Barbie" in the lyrics. The Appeals court recounted how one side said something offensive to the other and then the other side said something back. Apparently this caused both sides to dig into the sand and to refuse to settle.

The battle was so stupid that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals scolded both sides when saying at the end of the Opinion "The Parties are advised to chill."

[brucejr]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Don't be quite so sure about that. Apple has long been the unrivaled KING of completely locked, proprietary hardware/OS combinations. Just ask those who tried to use "unlocked" versions of the Apple OS to build clone Apples and Macs. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find the "locking" of this device to be much more sophisticated and much more difficult to crack than your typical cell phone, coupled with Apple's threat to go after anyone with legal action who starts unlocking them.

Exactamundo! Which has been one of the shortcomings of their computers. I am quite certain they will have an Area 51 type of security feature to ensure proprietary domination.

[busterkat]

Originally Posted by GMK

busterkat,

One hell of a write up. Well worth reading in its entirety. very insightful

A couple of points:

1. I agree that the exclusive partnership with Cingular is certainly not the best for us consumers who want choice. Bad show Steve.

2. My purchase of the 8100 was through TMO and the sale-to-out-the-door process wasn't anything like you're describing which leads me to believe that either TMO has it figured out or the activation/paperwork process is hidden to the customer. I recollect popping in the sim card, a few minutes on the computer and I was out the door.

3. You state: "But the thing that shocked me most, was to see Apple release a locked and branded phone only available with a ball and chain 2 year contract. To me this totally contradicts Apple's often defiant, pioneering attitude."

I think most would agree that Apples's proprietary lock on music sold through its iTunes store is a bit ball and chainish also. I believe Apple is on the carpet in some non-Us countries for this perceived monopolistic behavior. Perhaps we have a meeting of soul-mates here.

4. I think it will be very interesting to see Cingular's take on what the traffic will bear for rate plans. I'll bet it ain't goin down.

This document came from blacklist1977's Xanga Site. I didn't write it!

re iTunes yes it is a bit but it's still in the Apple "family". My experience with TMO was excellent too.

[TheBigNewt]

Am I doing the math wrong? Jobs said he wants 1% of the US phone market, or 8 million phones sold by 2008. Are there 800 million cellphones in the US. Nearest figure I can get is around 200 million (58 for Cingulair).
On thing nobody mentioned in all these posts is what if they don't sell so good and they drop the price? Apple has done that with iPods before. Not drastically, but they have used price drops to increase sales, esp. when newer stuff comes out. Like I said I got my Pearl for free from Amazon, if I walk into a store it's $200. I suspect there will be some enticements forthcoming because the first thing out of everyone's mouth is how expensive it is, and wait till they see the price of the voice/data that goes with it.

[GMK]

Originally Posted by busterkat

This document came from blacklist1977's Xanga Site. I didn't write it!

re iTunes yes it is a bit but it's still in the Apple "family". My experience with TMO was excellent too.

Sorry. While the egg on my face is drying, I didn't note that there was a linked reference to the excerpted site at the bottom of the post.

[SanFrancisco]

Originally Posted by GMK

Sorry. While the egg on my face is drying, I didn't note that there was a linked reference to the excerpted site at the bottom of the post.

Plus it was in quotes.

What great post though, calling it to our attention. Great expose on Cingular.

[GMK]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

Plus it was in quotes. http://www.heartinsanfrancisco.com/anifingerwag.gif

What great post though, calling it to our attention. Great expose on Cingular.

Well. Technically it was in quote.

[DallasFlier]

More and more info comes to light as time goes on. Some very interesting comments from a Cingular exec, back at CES after the MacWorld launch:

LAS VEGAS—Movie studios and record labels have bent to Apple. But in the end, Apple bent to Cingular with a multi-year, exclusive US contract for an entire line of different iPhone models, Glenn Lurie, Cingular's president of national distribution told journalists at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES 2007) today.

When asked about a give-and-take leading to the Apple-Cingular partnership, Lurie said, "I'm not sure we gave anything." Later, he commented, "I think they bent a lot." That bending included allowing the phone to be locked to Cingular, just one of several restrictions on the new iPhone. Press reports today said the phone will not accept third-party applications, though Apple may allow third parties to program mini-application "widgets."

Now to me, the MOST interesting part of that quote is the final part. For emphasis, "Press reports today said the phone will not accept third-party applications, though Apple may allow third parties to program mini-application "widgets."

Additionally:

While "there are bad guys out there that unlock phones," Lurie said, Apple and Cingular are taking unspecified steps to make the phone more difficult to unlock and use on other GSM carriers in the US.

As I was speculating, sounds likely that the prospects of unlocking this for use on other carriers, while maybe not impossible, will likely be even more difficult than most phones.

Cingular: We Made Apple Bend

So, based on the title of the article and the quotes therein, at least one thing appears certain - they seem to be a good match in terms of chest-beating and chutzpah, if nothing else.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by Stinsonddog

I know this is a heated topic. Please keep this the dialog here sane.
Take anything heated to PM please. I have let my perspectives be known in a sane way in various threads, and I would encourage you all to do the same.

Well, if nothing else, the unveiling of the iPhone has certainly opened the curtain and shed a spotlight on knee-jerk, fear-based agendas.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Well, if nothing else, the unveiling of the iPhone has certainly opened the curtain and shed a spotlight on knee-jerk, fear-based agendas.

Just out of curiosity, do you actually have anything to say about the iPhone, aside from you snide implications that you know more about corporate law than any human on Earth?

By the way, in case you haven't heard, some of the biggest market segments for BlackBerries are large corporations, legal firms, and government offices, so this might not be the best place to assume you are the only one who knows anything. You might want to look for some of the other forums where your assumption that you are the only person who has ever been involved with a corporate legal proceeding would not seem quite as arrogant.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Just out of curiosity, do you actually have anything to say about the iPhone, aside from you snide implications that you know more about corporate law than any human on Earth?

No such comment has been made, either implied or otherwise. Your incredibly sarcastic tone is neither welcome nor warranted.

As for the iPhone, all that has been previously posted, and all that will be posted prior to a hands-on review of a production unit is premature and in some cases recklessly irresponsible.

The iPhone has, indeed, IMO thrown down the GUI gauntlet and no other cell or data device is prepared to go head-to-head on that level, based on early demonstrations. I concur completely with Mark Rejhon's assessment of both what the iPhone is as well as what it isn't, again based upon early demonstrations. Is it even necessary to compare it to a Blackberry? No. They are 2 very different animals. However, for those who are watching RIM's efforts and investment in the Cell/Media market segment, it may raise some concern. I say, the more competition, the better. Corps that rest on their laurels are quickly made into dinosaurs, and deservedly so.

Can I speculate on the iPhone's OS in a mobile format? No, and neither can anyone who has not had this in their hands. Can I speculate on its ability to deliver what it promises? No, and neither can anyone who has not had this in their hands. Some were even speculating that the iPhone was only vaporware. Maybe it's my former mother-in-law incarnate too! But, just as much, I have serious reservations about that too.

By the way, in case you haven't heard, some of the biggest market segments for BlackBerries are large corporations, legal firms, and government offices, so this might not be the best place to assume you are the only one who knows anything. You might want to look for some of the other forums where your assumption that you are the only person who has ever been involved with a corporate legal proceeding would not seem quite as arrogant.

If those you describe are available on this board, and specifically, are posting on this general subject, they should hold themselves to a higher standard than juvenile anti-Apple, fear-based attacks. That's pretty low-ball petty for someone of such high caliber, wouldn't you agree?

[Mark Rejhon]

Very interesting. No comments about the corporate affilations -- I feel that's for the big guys to wring out, don't want to burn any bridges here...

Pros, cons, bravado aside, zealotry aside, whining aside... As a computer geek I am pretty interested in the apparently very interesting technical aspects of this gadget (I love gadgets). It genuinely looks a few years ahead of its time.

I'll just wait out the exclusivity agreements, Apple announces the iPhone programming SDK (guesstimate fall 2007), and I'll probably get one as a multimedia-purposed PDA. (I might even not insert a SIM card in it at all.)

[SanFrancisco]

It seems to me that a lot of criticisms around the Net don't require that people get their hands on the device to talk about perceived flaws. Discussions have so far centered on talking about the iPhone's SPECS as announced by Apple.

The iPhone is going to be Apple's Newton 2.0. I don't see it upsetting anyone's plans other than those riding on Apple's cart.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

Discussions have so far centered on talking about the iPhones SPECS as announced by Apple.

Yeah ... that's what's filling up all the pages here alright! <snicker>

The iPhone is going to be Apple's Newton 2.0. I don't see it upsetting anyone's plans other than those riding on Apple's cart.

Your loathe toward Apple is duly noted.