[Dawg]

Originally Posted by test54

thanks Dawg, i dont understand why BB for life?

can their not be another device as good as BB? ever?

I have tried all the rest wm models reg cell phones treos and so on and so forth and I always come back home so I will never have anything but a BB again

[test54]

fair enough. I guess i might be a few years behind you in this then. But i also want the latest and greatest gadgets. guess that will change when i'm married.

[jibi]

Originally Posted by test54

Is it really possible Jibi that they designed the 88xx and 83xx to not fit GPS and wifi and a camera in that case? I mean is Nokia that much further ahead in phone design? I ask Jibi only because i think he has info on their designs, i think.

I don't have any information on their design schematics, but none of Nokia's current designs are as slim as RIM's current generation devices - Pearl/Pearl 2, Curve, 8800 (albeit more compact top-to-bottom). The N95 is the only comparable device and it's not anywhere near as functional (QWERTY keyboard) or as slim, although it does have it's advantages - the GPS is really good, but you have to be in open-air for a LONG time to get a lock on signal (first-hand experience). Nokia has two current devices with WiFi and GPS - the E90 and N95. The Curve, just to use the latest as an example, is 5mm slimmer (depth) and 10g lighter than the N95, Nokia's full-featured flag-ship consumer device; it's 6mm slimmer (depth) and 100g lighter than the E90, Nokia's full-featured flag-ship corporate device.

So yeah, in terms of fitting everything under the hood of the device of the Curve, I can see definitely see that as a hurdle. With that said, I would say that we can expect everything under the hood in future devices, as GPS and WiFi equipment and engineering implementation have likely advanced to cheaper and smaller since the time when the current-gen devices started development.

[test54]

Jibi, you always have good posts, and I agree that Nokia doesn't have an exact competitor. But my point is that RIM's competitors do have phones with all the toys coming out, HTC (kaiser) and Nokia (E90) are two that get alot of press. And of course apple but they are (think) different. and i know they are WM, but look how people use regular windows and how troubling it usually is, people will buy WM, maybe not Blackberry people but other.

And lets not forget a consumer browser, i know the reasons for keeping the BB browser locked down but there is no alternative for those of us that want to do more with browsing.

[Galvatron]

Originally Posted by boostieboy

screw wifi, i want 3g damnit

not american carriers have a 3G net.
3G HSDPA is a network/carrier isssue. Not enogh north american carriers have upgraded theire networks yet so bust on the carriers not rim. rim can sell shipments of of #G capable units i]to carriers without 3G. whats the point the carrier would ask "why would I want to provide this to subscribers when we dont have a 3g capable network? they feel the not getting the moneys worth. or im tollazy an cheap to upgrade my net to #G so i don't need this.

bust on the Telco's folks not the company that makes the phone. well you can bust on appple and palm those are the exeptions to that rule

[tommyboy]

Battery Life - kinda surprised no one's brought this up yet.

The only BlackBerry with GPS + Wifi also happens to be the BlackBerry with the largest battery capacity - BlackBerry 8820. Just a thought...

[Perfect Storm]

Originally Posted by Galvatron

not american carriers have a 3G net.
3G HSDPA is a network/carrier isssue. Not enogh north american carriers have upgraded theire networks yet so bust on the carriers not rim. rim can sell shipments of of #G capable units i]to carriers without 3G. whats the point the carrier would ask "why would I want to provide this to subscribers when we dont have a 3g capable network? they feel the not getting the moneys worth. or im tollazy an cheap to upgrade my net to #G so i don't need this.

bust on the Telco's folks not the company that makes the phone. well you can bust on appple and palm those are the exeptions to that rule

I seriously wonder why you post some times. It's useless cause no one can read it!

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by Galvatron

not american carriers have a 3G net.
3G HSDPA is a network/carrier isssue. Not enogh north american carriers have upgraded theire networks yet so bust on the carriers not rim. rim can sell shipments of of #G capable units i]to carriers without 3G. whats the point the carrier would ask "why would I want to provide this to subscribers when we dont have a 3g capable network? they feel the not getting the moneys worth. or im tollazy an cheap to upgrade my net to #G so i don't need this.

bust on the Telco's folks not the company that makes the phone. well you can bust on appple and palm those are the exeptions to that rule

Ever thought about using a spell checker?

[Jagga]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

I'm so tired of both RIM's "halfway" model and VZW's release schedule. This is a joke. I use my phone for personal reasons as much as business, and PUSH just isn't enough of a selling point anymore. Where I live, VZW and ATT coverage is about equal, with VZW having just a little better call clarity. Not enough to keep me, though.

Looks like I'll be putting my new 8830 up for sale here and picking up an iPhone. I give up. RIM, you win. I'm not a hardcore email user, so no, I take it you don't need my business.

Although you're upset you haven't stated what you expected/needed out of the BB unit, only your preference to with device to switch too. I don't need to defend RIM but I'm curious as to WHY you're so quick to switch without stating a reason? I may have missed this above but if I didn't, could you state why?

Be careful of not falling into the iPhone HYPE. Is STILL a phone with glorified eye candy features ... you MUST think of how to use it DAILY to do the things you want/expect it to do match up with what it CAN do. Same for ANY device you purchase.

If its video streaming via the browser, multitude of consumer applications, or a better seemless way of editing office core app documents > might I suggest a Dopod C730 MS Mobile Standard 6 device. Still has qwerty keypad ... and you can install BBConnect 4 IF you're willing patiently to get initial email of the day within 15mins AFTER it arrives in your mailbox-inbox. Then waiting 2-3 mins for an email afterwards UNLESS past 15mins to begin patience again. Or does the sheen of the glass screen of the iPhone/pod unit beckon your attention.

[theBorg]

Originally Posted by mortys11

there is no way they cant fit all (gps, wifi and camera in a nice slick case).

With all due respect to those who have this opinion...

Simply not true. Such a feat is mind-bogglingly complex and difficult to execute with success.

Such devices are pushing the bleeding edge of chip design, power design, RF (radio) design, system integration, modelling, (mother) board design, software design, and verification. It requires millions of dollars of the the latest in (buggy) Computer Aided Design (CAD) tools, packs of super-star engineers, about 20 man-years of effort, and a good dose of luck.

It's not like RIM can roll down to Radio Shack, pick up a couple of chips and an antenna, solder 'em together and deliver you every feature you can think of.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by Jagga

Although you're upset you haven't stated what you expected/needed out of the BB unit, only your preference to with device to switch too. I don't need to defend RIM but I'm curious as to WHY you're so quick to switch without stating a reason? I may have missed this above but if I didn't, could you state why?

Be careful of not falling into the iPhone HYPE. Is STILL a phone with glorified eye candy features ... you MUST think of how to use it DAILY to do the things you want/expect it to do match up with what it CAN do. Same for ANY device you purchase.

If its video streaming via the browser, multitude of consumer applications, or a better seemless way of editing office core app documents > might I suggest a Dopod C730 MS Mobile Standard 6 device. Still has qwerty keypad ... and you can install BBConnect 4 IF you're willing patiently to get initial email of the day within 15mins AFTER it arrives in your mailbox-inbox. Then waiting 2-3 mins for an email afterwards UNLESS past 15mins to begin patience again. Or does the sheen of the glass screen of the iPhone/pod unit beckon your attention.

Heh...I take it you're not a big iPhone fan, eh?

Here's the deal - I am a self-employed consultant that does not need PUSH email. I think the BBs are fantastic devices and what they get right is fantastic. The problem is, I use my device in my personal life as much as my business, and that's where I find RIM and VZW so limiting. I do not *require* a camera, but why shouldn't I have one when virtually every smartphone available offers it? I don't *require* media capabilities, but when so many devices offer it why shouldn't I have it? Same with WiFi, same with GPS. These are things that would be nice to have, and with so many smartphones offering them, why settle for one that doesn't? RIM knows this, and I appreciate the design difficulties in including EVERYTHING, but this parsing out feature by feature is BS. And whomever is responsible for VZW's slow adaption should be beaten about the head with a Treo.

So, is the iPhone the answer to my prayers? Absolutely not. I've put in a decent amount of time playing with one and the conclusion I've come to is that it would fit most of my needs, whereas a BB only fits a couple of them. Add a longer battery life, WiFi, camera, a music + video iPod, and I gotta tell you - it's a lot more than just a "shiny screen" that draws my attention.

So I'll now ask you:

Other than PUSH, what is the advantage to a BB vs. so many other smartphones out there?

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

Heh...I take it you're not a big iPhone fan, eh?

Here's the deal - I am a self-employed consultant that does not need PUSH email. I think the BBs are fantastic devices and what they get right is fantastic. The problem is, I use my device in my personal life as much as my business, and that's where I find RIM and VZW so limiting. I do not *require* a camera, but why shouldn't I have one when virtually every smartphone available offers it? I don't *require* media capabilities, but when so many devices offer it why shouldn't I have it? Same with WiFi, same with GPS. These are things that would be nice to have, and with so many smartphones offering them, why settle for one that doesn't? RIM knows this, and I appreciate the design difficulties in including EVERYTHING, but this parsing out feature by feature is BS. And whomever is responsible for VZW's slow adaption should be beaten about the head with a Treo.

So, is the iPhone the answer to my prayers? Absolutely not. I've put in a decent amount of time playing with one and the conclusion I've come to is that it would fit most of my needs, whereas a BB only fits a couple of them. Add a longer battery life, WiFi, camera, a music + video iPod, and I gotta tell you - it's a lot more than just a "shiny screen" that draws my attention.

So I'll now ask you:

Other than PUSH, what is the advantage to a BB vs. so many other smartphones out there?

I wonder, is this the market RIM is trying to expand into? If so, is this how it has to compete? It's not about well-crafted hardware and services optimized to meet a specific need? Rather, is it all about keeping up with the Jones? Will keeping up even enough? Will RIM end up ruining a good thing trying to get ahead of the Jones?

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

I wonder, is this the market RIM is trying to expand into? If so, is this how it has to compete? It's not about well-crafted hardware and services optimized to meet a specific need? Rather, is it all about keeping up with the Jones? Will keeping up even enough? Will RIM end up ruining a good thing trying to get ahead of the Jones?

Oh stop. This has nothing to do with keeping up with the Joneses or anyone else. The features I"m describing aren't exactly new or groundbreaking, they're quite common to a great many smartphones these days. That's the point. If RIM offered a device that had WiFi and/or GPS with a camera and media capabilities, I probably wouldn't think twice about any other device.

I am not knocking BlackBerrys. They are wonderful devices. RIM could already very easily compete with "the Joneses" but for some reason they're doling out features one at a time.

[Perfect Storm]

Originally Posted by theBorg

With all due respect to those who have this opinion...

Simply not true. Such a feat is mind-bogglingly complex and difficult to execute with success.

Such devices are pushing the bleeding edge of chip design, power design, RF (radio) design, system integration, modelling, (mother) board design, software design, and verification. It requires millions of dollars of the the latest in (buggy) Computer Aided Design (CAD) tools, packs of super-star engineers, about 20 man-years of effort, and a good dose of luck.

It's not like RIM can roll down to Radio Shack, pick up a couple of chips and an antenna, solder 'em together and deliver you every feature you can think of.

Well put!

[aiharkness]

Wirelessly posted (8700g: BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

Oh stop. This has nothing to do with keeping up with the Joneses or anyone else. The features I"m describing aren't exactly new or groundbreaking, they're quite common to a great many smartphones these days. That's the point. If RIM offered a device that had WiFi and/or GPS with a camera and media capabilities, I probably wouldn't think twice about any other device.

I am not knocking BlackBerrys. They are wonderful devices. RIM could already very easily compete with "the Joneses" but for some reason they're doling out features one at a time.

Sorry. If the shoe fits...

It is obvious in so many posts lately that people have bought a blackberry for whatever reason and then they are shocked when it does blackberry things, isn't like other cell phones, or isn't complete with features and functions found on other devices.

You ask, Why if other phones have this or that feature, why can't you? Is that what RIM has to do to keep your business, match the competition feature by feature, so your blackberry at least matches other cell phones in gizmos and gimmickry? And is this good for RIM and the blackberry in the long run. It's a fair question.

Maybe losing its coolness factor or whatever it is right now would be the best thing long term. I don't know. I'm a selfish blackberry purist who doesn't want to see the device become a generic commodity.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

Wirelessly posted (8700g: BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)



Sorry. If the shoe fits...

It is obvious in so many posts lately that people have bought a blackberry for whatever reason and then they are shocked when it does blackberry things, isn't like other cell phones, or isn't complete with features and functions found on other devices.

You ask, Why if other phones have this or that feature, why can't you? Is that what RIM has to do to keep your business, match the competition feature by feature, so your blackberry at least matches other cell phones in gizmos and gimmickry? And is this good for RIM and the blackberry in the long run. It's a fair question.

Maybe losing its coolness factor or whatever it is right now would be the best thing long term. I don't know. I'm a selfish blackberry purist who doesn't want to see the device become a generic commodity.

All I will say is

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

Wirelessly posted (8700g: BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)



Sorry. If the shoe fits...

It is obvious in so many posts lately that people have bought a blackberry for whatever reason and then they are shocked when it does blackberry things, isn't like other cell phones, or isn't complete with features and functions found on other devices.

You ask, Why if other phones have this or that feature, why can't you? Is that what RIM has to do to keep your business, match the competition feature by feature, so your blackberry at least matches other cell phones in gizmos and gimmickry? And is this good for RIM and the blackberry in the long run. It's a fair question.

Maybe losing its coolness factor or whatever it is right now would be the best thing long term. I don't know. I'm a selfish blackberry purist who doesn't want to see the device become a generic commodity.

You're also incredibly narrow minded. These "gizmos" you're referring to are actually used for day to day business/personal tasks. Sorry, but the bulk of folks complaining about lack of WiFi and GPS aren't "noobs" who came to the party late. They're folks, just like me, who have found that these items can enhance productivity and make life somewhat easier while on the run.

I don't care about the "coolness" factor, and if I did I wouldn't own a smartphone anyway. I'd go get one of those stupid RAZR-life flips that force people to listen to obnoxious pop muzak whenever they call you. I'm a self-employed consultant who I can assure you uses this device to enable me to more efficiently help run my business. I'm not some 16 year old teenage girl looking for something that comes in pink and glows in the dark.

And yes, it is good for business that RIM offers a better mouse trap, at least where consumers are concerned. If the company wants to tap the consumer market, how can you even suggest that offering items that consumers want on their phone somehow damages the allure of the device? You've got to be joking. You do understand how the free market works, right? I can completely see where offering a top notch communications device that combines other readily available smartphone features would be SOOO destructive to the proud BlackBerry tradition. Oh, the horror!

[Berry One]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

how can you even suggest that offering items that consumers want on their phone somehow damages the allure of the device? You've got to be joking.

Here is real life example. My relative asked me help him with buying cell phone. I assessed his needs and realized that what he needs is simplicity. A simple cell phone that lets you easily make phone calls and receive phone calls. Simple and easy understandable user interface is a must. Camera is not required. Ordering ringtones is not planned. Web browsing and emailing and SMS- not interested.

Can you blame a person who wants a frigging phone that is just supposed to do what a phone supposed to do?

I was amazed how much time I had to spend looking for such a phone, and no- it ended to be not the cheapest on the market.
I decided it worth extra $20 for the phone which fits user needs vs. other cheaper model gizmonized with features that person will not need and could get confused trying to navigate through.

I covered $20 from my pocket knowing I'll save a lot of time on not having 'support calls.'

Sometimes, too many features is too many features.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by Berry One

Sometimes, too many features is too many features.

Add buggy and over rated and you just described Win Mobile to a tee.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by Berry One

Here is real life example. My relative asked me help him with buying cell phone. I assessed his needs and realized that what he needs is simplicity. A simple cell phone that lets you easily make phone calls and receive phone calls. Simple and easy understandable user interface is a must. Camera is not required. Ordering ringtones is not planned. Web browsing and emailing and SMS- not interested.

Can you blame a person who wants a frigging phone that is just supposed to do what a phone supposed to do?

I was amazed how much time I had to spend looking for such a phone, and no- it ended to be not the cheapest on the market.
I decided it worth extra $20 for the phone which fits user needs vs. other cheaper model gizmonized with features that person will not need and could get confused trying to navigate through.

I covered $20 from my pocket knowing I'll save a lot of time on not having 'support calls.'

Sometimes, too many features is too many features.

Except your relative doesn't even enter into our conversation here. Of course folks who just want a phone should only buy a phone. Why would those people be interested in BlackBerrys or any other type of smart phone? The conversation we're having is about consumers who are interested in smart phones and whether or not BB's need to adopt more features to be/stay competitive in the consumer market. add to that if there are any smart phone shoppers who also want something fairly basic, there will always be models that give them that. And a BB certainly wouldn't fit their needs because of the increased cost required due to data plans.

No offense, but your story has nothing to do with anything.