[FroogleThis]

Originally Posted by benisntfunny

At the very least have access to exchange server (address book and calendar too), edit word documents, save files to a memory card, and have some sort of disk mode for transferring files between machines.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot more I could think of.

Idokorru's RDC+ application also allows remote access. Useful for those times you need to submit your time entry as you're boarding a plane.

GPS allows you to get to where you need to be, and is useful for the times you don't feel like taking your GPS unit through airport security.

Tons of other things you could do.

[Alex Alexzander]

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

Yes, Alex's post was similar to the way our older Art Directors feel. I'm not saying a PC is completely incompatible with design, because that would be a lie. I was pointing out your narrow-mindedness. To keep this short, and as mature as possible, I'll just try and clarify a few of your statements.

1. I have owned 4 Mac's, across a few generations, and worked on many more (not nearly close to Alex's history). I have never, I repeat NEVER, had to take any of my Apple computers to the store, other than to pickup a keyboard that a bum friend spilled beer on. I hate the Apple store-- except for the one time I had to take my iPod for service. I had just purchased it, and the stupid thing just stopped working (despite many attempts to fix it). I was able to return it, and take that $300 back home.

2. Of course I didn't build my system. Why on earth would I need or want to? To call it my own? My work speaks for my capabilities-- not my Mac. I am by no means a die-hard Mac user, because I usually have some flavor of Windows next to me.... For testing purposes. It's not my fault Microsoft hasn't released a new Office for Mac Application in 3 years! I am required to double check that my work maintains quality across all platforms, and since Powerpoint's most recent release in Windows-only, I am required to use it. Please, tell me why in the world I would pay ANY amount of money for a computer, only to build it myself? I focus my time on things that I'm good at, and enjoy. I'll leave it to the company I'm purchasing my computer from to send me what I need. Sure, there were many add-ons such as capture cards and RAID/SCSI controllers, but I prefer to stick to the vendors I trust.

3. Why dual-boot on Windows? Gaming? Database applications? Who knows. There's a host of reasons, and I can only name a few. I personally use a Windows machine for testing, that's all I need it for.

4. Don't throw stones at a glass house... We are both narrow minded. You call Mac's junk when you've never actually owned one (I'm guessing here...). I call Apple's the design standard because, in the world I work in, it is. We have a phenomenal IT staff here, and two of them have even switched to the MB Pro (and yes, they obviously have to dual boot).

Honestly, it's all about preference. I find that Mac's suit my lifestyle and work load. I make the financial sacrifice to save the time and risk of building a comparable system. Judging by your responses, I suspect you are a bit of a gamer, most likely young, and you probably have no need for a Mac. That's fine, but don't speak to something you only have an opinion on. Calling anything you've never owned "junk" is lame. It would be like me, having never owned a bike, to call the bike in your avatar junk "because a few friends say it sucks".

And, I wouldn't buy the iPhone. Blackberry has never let me down.

Hi Froogle,

I'd say most folks don't want to build their own systems, but I am simply not sure if that is correct. We have today, what is known as "White Box" and "Brown Box". Brown Box simply means the machine is built and shipped to in a box. You open it, plug it in, and you're off and running.

White box means you either built the PC yourself, or someone built it for you from parts. Meaning a montherboard, processor, video card, etc were selected from part stores and put together to form the PC the user wants.

When you hear statements like HP is the number 1 PC maker, it's actually not true. It's a half true. What they mean is, HP is the number one Brown Box manufacture. But as I said, 205 million PCs are sold every year, and if you add up the top 5 world wide, which Apple isn't even in, you get less than 45% of that number. White Box makers account for more than 50% of all PC sales, and they are actually growing at the expense of Brown box. It has been this way for a very long time.

You're one of those that have better things to do with their time then to build a PC. Nothing wrong with that. But you did ask, why would you want to. And I want to answer that.

I wanted to built a better Avid machine then was sold for half the price. It took me just hours to build it. So for a few hours of work, I saved over $2,000. I wrote an article on RAID technologies describing how I at the time, built my own RAID array for $1,250 including the RAID controller. At a time when RAID was more than double that cost, and it maintains a 240 MB/sec transfer rate. So I was able to ingest uncompressed footage for a not a lot of money. All that savings paid for my Avid license. So FCP users love to say FCP is cheaper than Avid. Well, because I built my own system, my Avid was cheaper.

There is also something to be said for getting new technologies when you want them. Look at the folks that founded Apple. Steve Wozniak is more like what I am saying then what you are saying. He wanted a computer, and so he built one. Apple wants great technologies and software, so they build machines and write software. All the people at Apple are software developers, hardware engineers, artists, marketers, etc. They are far closer to me than to you.

Why would you want to build? Because truly creative people need to go that step further faster than waiting for others to do it for them. I wanted to give daileys in HD out months ago. FCP users don't have a way of burning hours of HD footage on a DVD that can play in a set top player. Avid users do, and have for months. We didn't have to wait for Apple to build a Machine capable of authoring in Blu ray, or burning Blu ray DVDs. We just went out and added it as soon as it was available.

Building a machine, and being able to pick and choose from many software vendors is a driver for creative people. We do the same things you do, but we go a step further. We even build the machines we need to accomplish those tasks. Look at how the new Star Wars film was cleaned up. Remember that? It was an article where the company put together 600 Macs to form a SuperComputer, that was programmed to examine all the film, it's scratches, etc, and it was tasked with cleaning all that footage, so the film could be restored. Did they wait for someone to build a super computer and offer it as a product? No. They built one. Even Walter Murch, someone Mac users love to point to, developed technologies used to splice film because he needed tools that didn't already exist. Here we have a sound editor, and film editor, acting like an engineer, and programmer, because it made him a better film editor.

So my point to you is this. Truly creative people are not just Adobe masters. I understand the limiations of my hardware, and I am ready, willing, and able to build the machine that will give me the tools I need to edit that footage, or create that artowrk I want and need. BorisFX only needed to tell me what the specs are for running Boris Blue. I then changed my confiuration to match that spec, and now enjoy real-time advanced compositing as a result.

I'm not saying you are not creative. But I am saying it's not at all out of the ordinary to go in this direction. Look at the job postings for employement at Pixar some time. Everyone there is pretty much a programmer, and artist, at the same time. It's just how it is at the very high end.

-Alex

[dvaskelis]

I just wanted to mention that I don't care, at all, what kind of computer/PC/Mac/brown box/white box anyone here uses.



But I'll happily keep reading any BlackBerry 88xx vs. Apple iPhone compare/contrast discussion.

[FroogleThis]

Originally Posted by Alex Alexzander

Hi Froogle,

I'd say most folks don't want to build their own systems, but I am simply not sure if that is correct. We have today, what is known as "White Box" and "Brown Box". Brown Box simply means the machine is built and shipped to in a box. You open it, plug it in, and you're off and running.

White box means you either built the PC yourself, or someone built it for you from parts. Meaning a montherboard, processor, video card, etc were selected from part stores and put together to form the PC the user wants.

When you hear statements like HP is the number 1 PC maker, it's actually not true. It's a half true. What they mean is, HP is the number one Brown Box manufacture. But as I said, 205 million PCs are sold every year, and if you add up the top 5 world wide, which Apple isn't even in, you get less than 45% of that number. White Box makers account for more than 50% of all PC sales, and they are actually growing at the expense of Brown box. It has been this way for a very long time.

You're one of those that have better things to do with their time then to build a PC. Nothing wrong with that. But you did ask, why would you want to. And I want to answer that.

I wanted to built a better Avid machine then was sold for half the price. It took me just hours to build it. So for a few hours of work, I saved over $2,000. I wrote an article on RAID technologies describing how I at the time, built my own RAID array for $1,250 including the RAID controller. At a time when RAID was more than double that cost, and it maintains a 240 MB/sec transfer rate. So I was able to ingest uncompressed footage for a not a lot of money. All that savings paid for my Avid license. So FCP users love to say FCP is cheaper than Avid. Well, because I built my own system, my Avid was cheaper.

There is also something to be said for getting new technologies when you want them. Look at the folks that founded Apple. Steve Wozniak is more like what I am saying then what you are saying. He wanted a computer, and so he built one. Apple wants great technologies and software, so they build machines and write software. All the people at Apple are software developers, hardware engineers, artists, marketers, etc. They are far closer to me than to you.

Why would you want to build? Because truly creative people need to go that step further faster than waiting for others to do it for them. I wanted to give daileys in HD out months ago. FCP users don't have a way of burning hours of HD footage on a DVD that can play in a set top player. Avid users do, and have for months. We didn't have to wait for Apple to build a Machine capable of authoring in Blu ray, or burning Blu ray DVDs. We just went out and added it as soon as it was available.

Building a machine, and being able to pick and choose from many software vendors is a driver for creative people. We do the same things you do, but we go a step further. We even build the machines we need to accomplish those tasks. Look at how the new Star Wars film was cleaned up. Remember that? It was an article where the company put together 600 Macs to form a SuperComputer, that was programmed to examine all the film, it's scratches, etc, and it was tasked with cleaning all that footage, so the film could be restored. Did they wait for someone to build a super computer and offer it as a product? No. They built one. Even Walter Murch, someone Mac users love to point to, developed technologies used to splice film because he needed tools that didn't already exist. Here we have a sound editor, and film editor, acting like an engineer, and programmer, because it made him a better film editor.

So my point to you is this. Truly creative people are not just Adobe masters. I understand the limiations of my hardware, and I am ready, willing, and able to build the machine that will give me the tools I need to edit that footage, or create that artowrk I want and need. BorisFX only needed to tell me what the specs are for running Boris Blue. I then changed my confiuration to match that spec, and now enjoy real-time advanced compositing as a result.

I'm not saying you are not creative. But I am saying it's not at all out of the ordinary to go in this direction. Look at the job postings for employement at Pixar some time. Everyone there is pretty much a programmer, and artist, at the same time. It's just how it is at the very high end.

-Alex

You are very good with your words. I wish more of the Mac-vs-PC debates consisted of intelligence instead of assumptions (which I admittedly am guilty of, occasionally). I do understand what you're saying, and I see your very clear point. I would call a lot of the instances "extensions" of their computers. Those who wait for a particular function to be implemented off the line are consumers, a targeted audience who purchase that 'new' technology specifically because they are made to believe (by cool commercials, guerilla advertising tactics, etc.) that what they are buying is top of the line, as good as it gets, and they are often naive enough to pay top dollar for it. But that keeps people like me working.

You clearly have a VERY extensive knowledge of video, which is something I love doing.

I would never claim myself to be 'creative'. Yes, I understand PS, FCP, and the likes. I also know that my G5 would not necessarily do what I need it to right out of the box. I generally classify "building a computer" as literally, buying the processor, board, etc. and piecing it together. What you explained is something I view as extending your computer. To tie into my first paragraph about consumers, the creative industry's ability to push applications and hardware to it's limits, and keep pushing, is what puts these technologies on the assembly line. If someone in your position didn't push and pull to get the cutting edge technology in the public eye, then there wouldn't be that person that looks to get it to a cost effective consumer level. It's a long chain of events, but it's what the world has become. Marketing/Advertising is an extremely volatile business, and only those willing to push the limits of their surroundings (employees, computers, etc.) will reap the benefits.

It may be my ignorance in separating 'building' a computer and 'extending' a computer. Either way, thank you for teaching me something new.

And on a side note, I'd like to share my frustration with Apple when they didn't include a RAID controller on the G5. Fortunately, as you've stated, hardware RAID is inexpensive. Just a shame they built RAID functionality into the disk utility.app but only alloted the machine with 2 drive bays... As if I'd put my system apps on a RAID 0 setup! :(

[jetspeedz]

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

1. I have never, I repeat NEVER, had to take any of my Apple computers to the store, other than to pickup a keyboard that a bum friend spilled beer on. I hate the Apple store-- .

My point exactly... Your forced to go to the apple store when i can simply go down the street to repair the part myself ... if your knowledgeable then there is no need for tech support.. and you suppose all the Apple users know what they are doing.. they are no diff then PC users who call tech support as you put it or take it to the Apple store for repair...

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

2. Of course I didn't build my system. Why on earth would I need or want to? To call it my own? My work speaks for my capabilities-- not my Mac. I am by no means a die-hard Mac user, because I usually have some flavor of Windows next to me.... Please, tell me why in the world I would pay ANY amount of money for a computer, only to build it myself? I'll leave it to the company I'm purchasing my computer from to send me what I need. Sure, there were many add-ons such as capture cards and RAID/SCSI controllers, but I prefer to stick to the vendors I trust. .

Have you ever built your own system...!!! probably not just as you assume i have never used a Mac or apple product... A Mac is a pre assembled PC with a different OS if you want to use monkey terms which is why anyone who buys a Mac is simply too lazy or just does not have the hardware knowledge to build a system that suits their needs... I can guarantee what you do on your MAC with the limited add-ons will be no different then what a system built for you will do with about a fraction of the cost... Software is developed for PC and Mac makes no difference what system its run on; software is only as good and programmer whether it be PC or Mac

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

3. Why dual-boot on Windows? Gaming? Database applications? Who knows. There's a host of reasons, and I can only name a few. I personally use a Windows machine for testing, that's all I need it for. .

The only reason to get Dual boot is b/c Mac does not do everything PC can do so get your head out your ass and think why don't Pc have Dual boot running a Mac OS !!!

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

4. Don't throw stones at a glass house... We are both narrow minded. You call Mac's junk when you've never actually owned one (I'm guessing here...). I call Apple's the design standard because, in the world I work in, it is. We have a phenomenal IT staff here, and two of them have even switched to the MB Pro (and yes, they obviously have to dual boot). .

Agree with you there on being narrow minded but im not a fan of Windows just don't agree with the Apple junkies that try to convince people why their Macs are better especially when they throw out the "works better out the box theory" simply true if your a user who like to click yes and see yes on the screen...

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

Honestly, it's all about preference. I find that Mac's suit my lifestyle and work load. I make the financial sacrifice to save the time and risk of building a comparable system. Judging by your responses, I suspect you are a bit of a gamer, most likely young, and you probably have no need for a Mac. That's fine, but don't speak to something you only have an opinion on. Calling anything you've never owned "junk" is lame. It would be like me, having never owned a bike, to call the bike in your avatar junk "because a few friends say it sucks".

And, I wouldn't buy the iPhone. Blackberry has never let me down.

Sadly i have never owned a mac and never will, ive been building my own systems since the 80's and will continue to do so as it suits my needs... and No im not a gamer and yes im young probably compared to you. And your right Macs are not junk they are simply inferior to PC...

Lastly Alex put it best which is what i have been saying for years... if apple were to ever face the type of security exploits hackers put their time into Pc's Apple would be in the same boat and it would be no different... since most big corp/govt use Pc's there is no need to waste time on such a small market... and ive said it once and ill say it again it will never be used in an enterprise worldwide although some of the hardcore Apple guys say its inevitable ...

cheers

[FroogleThis]

jetspeedz, I don't argue with children. Kindly refer to the TOA when you registered for the board. You need to be 13+ and you clearly lied. Feel free to not tell me to get my 'head out my ass'. You may feel your opinion is right, but if I felt the urge, I could gladly point out the holes in your severely perforated, single minded opinion of Macs.

And you've been building your own systems since the 80's? Really!? REALLY!!!????
I'm sure you will have edited that statement by the time I submit this reply....

[jetspeedz]

Originally Posted by FroogleThis

jetspeedz, I don't argue with children. Kindly refer to the TOA when you registered for the board. You need to be 13+ and you clearly lied. Feel free to not tell me to get my 'head out my ass'. You may feel your opinion is right, but if I felt the urge, I could gladly point out the holes in your severely perforated, single minded opinion of Macs.

And you've been building your own systems since the 80's? Really!? REALLY!!!????
I'm sure you will have edited that statement by the time I submit this reply....

very intelligent response just like i was expecting... you have nothing to say so you change the subject...

your right i dont need to argue with someone like yourself who is an admitted narrow minded user... im surprised that you still have your BB and have not completely moved on to the iPhone ...

Stick to your mac and continue to waste your $$ enough said..

[test54]

I built my own system while in college because i had the time to do so. After that I simply wanted to buy rather than "waste" my time doing it. I simply do not enjoy spending the time doing that rather than something else. Its the same reason I run through the car wash rather than washing it at home. Or going to get work done on my car rather than work on it myself. does this make me lazy? I guess in someways but if there are other activities that I can do with that time then I dont think so.

Also, I only use laptops now for both work and home so that pretty much rules out any thoughts of building my own. I currently have a pb and a dell laptop (dell's a pos in comparison). Jet I see your points there but as an Apple user for about 10 years now, all 3 of my old machines are still up and running perfectly and i have given my old one to my nephews and nieces and still have had no problems.

I really dont see why this has to keep coming back to a pc vs. apple discussion when the fact is that this should be about iphone vs. 8800

Also, I do believe that macs are at a premium over other pc's but who cares, if people have the money what right do you have to tell them how to spend it? Some of us work hard to make it and dont care what some kid says is acceptable to spend it on.

[jewberry]

Originally Posted by benisntfunny

At the very least have access to exchange server (address book and calendar too), edit word documents, save files to a memory card, and have some sort of disk mode for transferring files between machines.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot more I could think of.

Exchange- I love this feature on the bberry and hope to see it on the iPho very soon. However, I wouldn't consider it essential to by business by any means.

Edit Word Docs- are you kidding me? You actually edit word docs on your bberry? THAT is crazy.

Save a file to memory- again, I don't see the argument there for businesss

Disk Mode- for what purpose exactly?

All of these are great features that a laptop can handle. Can you really function properly with only your bberry and not a laptop?

[jetspeedz]

Originally Posted by test54

I built my own system while in college because i had the time to do so. After that I simply wanted to buy rather than "waste" my time doing it. I simply do not enjoy spending the time doing that rather than something else. Its the same reason I run through the car wash rather than washing it at home. Or going to get work done on my car rather than work on it myself. does this make me lazy? I guess in someways but if there are other activities that I can do with that time then I dont think so.


I really dont see why this has to keep coming back to a pc vs. apple discussion when the fact is that this should be about iphone vs. 8800

Thats the difference, i build my own systems and i like working on my own cars/bikes b/c when i do it, it comes out perfect and flawless the way i like...

are you lazy or lack creativity? can't say b/c i dont know you... lets agree to disagree

and your right lets get back to iphone vs 8800

cheers

[FroogleThis]

Originally Posted by test54

I really dont see why this has to keep coming back to a pc vs. apple discussion when the fact is that this should be about iphone vs. 8800

I went WAY off topic. I couldn't resist. I guess there is that sick side of me that enjoys a good debate.

On topic, I have to wonder what the first major bug is going to be with the iPhone. Not to say Blackberry's haven't had theirs, but RIM didn't come off the line selling 500,000 units in the first week! It's astounding, but nothing short of expected.

And to jewberry:

I agree that a laptop is the obvious first choice to any handheld device, including the iPhone. The only reason I perform any of those tasks on my handheld is because I hate the airport screening process for laptops. It's bad enough I have to remove my socks and shoes, but taking out my laptop, blackberry, wallet and camera and placing them in separate bins for screening is just more than I want to go through for a one day business trip.

[jewberry]

Originally Posted by benisntfunny

At the very least have access to exchange server (address book and calendar too), edit word documents, save files to a memory card, and have some sort of disk mode for transferring files between machines.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot more I could think of.

Exchange- I love this feature on the bberry and hope to see it on the iPho very soon. However, I wouldn't consider it essential to by business by any means.

Edit Word Docs- are you kidding me? You actually edit word docs on your bberry? THAT is crazy.

Save a file to memory- again, I don't see the argument there for businesss

Disk Mode- for what purpose exactly?

All of these are great features that a laptop can handle. Can you really function properly with only your bberry and not a laptop?

[benisntfunny]

Originally Posted by jewberry

Exchange- I love this feature on the bberry and hope to see it on the iPho very soon. However, I wouldn't consider it essential to by business by any means.

Edit Word Docs- are you kidding me? You actually edit word docs on your bberry? THAT is crazy.

Save a file to memory- again, I don't see the argument there for businesss

Disk Mode- for what purpose exactly?

All of these are great features that a laptop can handle. Can you really function properly with only your bberry and not a laptop?

Yes I edit documents on my blackberry. We have status reports which are small 1 page word documents that need to be filled out here and there. It's very easy... very little typing involved. I wouldn't say it's that crazy to assume someone would use it for that type of functionality.

Disk Mode? Well I have a 1gb card I got for my blackberry, now I can plug it into my PC at work, throw 500mb worth of data on there and carry that back to my house. I could always get a USB drive of course and have just one more thing to carry around.

I see that you kind of just want to argue.. I don't see the point. If you don't think having access to your corporate address book and calendar is not essential to business then we are definitely not in the same situations. I work in a company where meetings get schedule throughout my entire day. There are many days I spend going from meeting to meeting to meeting...

This is all very silly to fight over, I don't think there's really any argument that many people use blackberries for business.

[test54]

Originally Posted by benisntfunny

This is all very silly to fight over, I don't think there's really any argument that many people use blackberries for business.

There is no arguement that BB are used for business but the arguement is that "business" comes in millions of forms and to say that one pda is more suited for "business" is ridiculous.

[FroogleThis]

Originally Posted by test54

There is no arguement that BB are used for business but the arguement is that "business" comes in millions of forms and to say that one pda is more suited for "business" is ridiculous.

Well, I don't know if I can say it's ridiculous for one handheld to be superior in a 'business' aspect, but as you said, it would depend on the type of business.

I would comfortably say that, in my humble opinion, Blackberry leads the market for 'business' handhelds. The vast majority of 'business' needs usually fall under data communication and rapid response. Since both of those rely on your carrier and the service area you are in, it pretty much boils down to reliability coinciding with functionality. Treo's (WMM) are unreliable, and though it looks more like a Windows laptop interface, the soft resets leave it as a last resort for those who are in need of consistent reliability. iPhone's, at this VERY early stage of the game, lack basic 'business' needs, but we can't confirm reliability only a week post-release. That leaves the tried-and-true Blackberry. Always connected to your Exchange, syncing with colleagues and saving the time to write out an email explaining a schedule, it's there. You forgot to add the new business contact to your contacts, but your colleague did, and it's synced. Take away the laptop, and you have the basic functionality (plus extras) without the bulk. And on top of it all, you have that on a relatively reliable device.

Just my honest opinion.

[test54]

my point was that every persons needs are different for their particular situation. I mean how many non-corporate businesses are run by people with just plane cellphones? I know the corp crown need their BES and yes rapid response email. However for the majority of american business the ordinary cell phone / pda serves them just well right now. I agree that if you need a serious business device then there is nothing better than a BB however if your in that middle ground like most of pda users are then the iphone is a viable alternative especially once they license active sync.

I am and will be a BB user but one thing I'm not going to ridicule someone's personal choices in computer / pda's as some have done in this post (jetspeedz, galvatron). To each his / her own.

Thats my 2 cents

[jetspeedz]

I think ONE of the reasons many of us carry a BB from a business standpoint is to avoid having to carry multiple devices. And if you travel like some of us its very convenient as stated going through the airport to checkin a bb which i can put in the same tray as my shoes and slip right back in my pocket vs a big bulky bag for the laptop i have to carry around that essentially does the same thing my BB would do as a true Smart phone.

These devices keep getting better and better with each release and making mobile computing easier...

[FroogleThis]

Originally Posted by test54

my point was that every persons needs are different for their particular situation. I mean how many non-corporate businesses are run by people with just plane cellphones? I know the corp crown need their BES and yes rapid response email. However for the majority of american business the ordinary cell phone / pda serves them just well right now. I agree that if you need a serious business device then there is nothing better than a BB however if your in that middle ground like most of pda users are then the iphone is a viable alternative especially once they license active sync.

I am and will be a BB user but one thing I'm not is set to ridicule someone's personal choices in computer / pda's as some have done in this post (jetspeedz, galvatron). To each his / her own.

Thats my 2 cents

I completely agree. I think that, for the most part, it's the need for instant gratification (for some people). I see a lot of people who claim a desperate need for BES, the latest devices, and top of the line accessories. Come to find out, a lot of those people REALLY pushing for the latest & greatest have no reason for it.

Vanity is the biggest and most dangerous human exploit.

[jetspeedz]

Originally Posted by test54

I am and will be a BB user but one thing I'm not going to ridicule someone's personal choices in computer / pda's as some have done in this post (jetspeedz, galvatron). To each his / her own.

Thats my 2 cents

your gonna start that crap again.. while you and your buddy FroogleThis started the debate !!!

give it a rest and grow up

[cdw5510]

iPhone vs Moto Q vs Any BB vs Treo (xxx) vs Nokia

Who wins.

I hacked most of these phones. Its all user preference. I like the BB out of them all. 8830.

C