[jsconyers]

Originally Posted by wayneholbrook

I mean come on, the 9700 is the best that RIM can put out? give me a break...With the droid's out and the new Iphone expected in June, hell the original Iphone was better than the 9700. RIM truly is a sinking ship, but it does have its die hard fans that can play pacman and frogger back and forth...

Originally Posted by wayneholbrook

Ok damn it! I'm going back to my 9700 again. No matter how made I get at RIM I keep picking up my damn 9700 with a frown on my face like a little kid who just got punished... I'll be BB again until my next rant!

Wow! I am at a loss for words. Why would someone go to a device that they just claimed the original iPhone was better than just a matter of a few hours ago?

[wayneholbrook]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

Wow! I am at a loss for words. Why would someone go to a device that they just claimed the original iPhone was better than just a matter of a few hours ago?

Because I'm out of my freaking mind....Love the iphone, but that damn 9700 keeps me coming back for more abuse. Don't have an answer as to why.

[TBOLTRAM]

Originally Posted by wayneholbrook

Because I'm out of my freaking mind....Love the iphone, but that damn 9700 keeps me coming back for more abuse. Don't have an answer as to why.

Same reason people drive Cobras. It ain't the best at everything and it has some flaws but what it does right is done real right.

[Robert_K]

Originally Posted by ubizmo

Very good point. It never fails that when someone is critical of the BB as a mainstream consumer device, someone like Robert_K will chime in and say that the BB is all about business, and so such comparisons miss the point. But it's he who misses the point that RIM has taken BB out of the "strictly business" niche and promoted it as a consumer device. When they did that, it became not only fair but expected to compare it to other consumer devices. If you go to the North American Blackberry web page right now and look at it, how would you say the BB is being presented? As an ultra-secure business tool?

Experience Your Music On Your BlackBerry Smartphone

Now let's see, would that be a "multimedia and coolness" kind of splash? I believe so. Is it aimed at people like Robert_K, in their corporate prisons with all the "multimedia and coolness" locked down? I think not.

Hit the "Smartphones" tab and scroll to the bottom. They are promoting three features: Theme Creation, Joining the BB Community, and Presentations, in that order. Well...theme creation is all about coolness! And arguably so is the BB Community. But I'll give Robert_K one out of three on that page: The Presentations item is business-oriented.

Hit the "Software" tab and look at the splash image of available software. How much of it is strictly business? I'll give you the Stock Manager, and there are a couple I don't recognize. But...Pandora, Slacker, iHeartRadio, are prominently displayed media apps, and most of the rest are general use apps of the sort used by anyone, not just corporate types.

The telltale point here is that when someone says something positive about the BB's multimedia or coolness factors, we don't see people like Robert_K rushing in to remind them that the BB is all about business and such praise is uncalled for.

Like it or not, RIM has put the BB squarely out there in the consumer market, and is in competition with the iPhone and Android phones. You can be sure that a lot of thought went into how to present those web pages, and the TV ads, and so on.

What's especially obnoxious is that Robert_K isn't satisfied offering this threadbare "strictly business" defense of the BB, but also feels compelled to resort to stereotypes, as if anyone not in a corporate office using a locked-down BB is immature. You know, the BB is very far from a sinking ship, but if anyone can sink it...

Ubizmo

I think you miss the point I'm trying to make.

RIM started out targeting business, anyone who has attended WES can tell you how much RIM really touts multimedia and coolness... which is very little (I think they mentioned AppWorld and had a booth for it but that was about it.)

I never said that a BlackBerry does not have those "coolness" capabilities but you have to admit that the iPhone outperforms RIM in mobile multimedia in everyway right now. Saying "BlackBerries can play digital music!" is like saying "My new car has AIRBAGS!"

The point I am trying to make here is that Apple doesn't come close to RIM when it comes to enterprise integration.. locked down or not. That DOES greatly affect the decision of IT organizations when looking for a mobile solution and why most do not use iPhones. Enterprise integration is RIM's bread & butter and without it they would not still have the marketshare they currently have.

Saying RIM is a sinking ship because they do not make a device that can compete with the iPhone on the "multimedia and coolness" factor is mute because that's not where RIM puts its priorities. It makes a mobile device taylored to business that happens to work well as a multimedia capable smart phone whereas Apple makes a consumer oriented smartphone capable of being used for business.

The argument the OP makes is only relevent if Apple is able to effectively enter the enterprise market as well as it did the consumer market.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by Robert_K

I think you miss the point I'm trying to make.

RIM started out targeting business, anyone who has attended WES can tell you how much RIM really touts multimedia and coolness... which is very little (I think they mentioned AppWorld and had a booth for it but that was about it.)

I never said that a BlackBerry does not have those "coolness" capabilities but you have to admit that the iPhone outperforms RIM in mobile multimedia in everyway right now. Saying "BlackBerries can play digital music!" is like saying "My new car has AIRBAGS!"

The point I am trying to make here is that Apple doesn't come close to RIM when it comes to enterprise integration.. locked down or not. That DOES greatly affect the decision of IT organizations when looking for a mobile solution and why most do not use iPhones. Enterprise integration is RIM's bread & butter and without it they would not still have the marketshare they currently have.

Saying RIM is a sinking ship because they do not make a device that can compete with the iPhone on the "multimedia and coolness" factor is mute because that's not where RIM puts its priorities. It makes a mobile device taylored to business that happens to work well as a multimedia capable smart phone whereas Apple makes a consumer oriented smartphone capable of being used for business.

The argument the OP makes is only relevent if Apple is able to effectively enter the enterprise market as well as it did the consumer market.

RIM is more interested in the consumer market then Apple is in the Enterprise one. The consumer market is where the real money is.

[TBOLTRAM]

Neither RIM or Apple are really that big a player in the global cellphone market. Nokia is number 1. Samsung is number 2. LG is number 3. Sony/Ericsson is number 4. Motorola is number 5. RIM and Apple fall under "others."

Nokia remains top dog in handsets, despite growing smartphone competition - 2/17/2010 - Electronic News

What the BlackBerrys and iPhones have been doing is to provide extra cash flow to the Verizons and at&ts. Other cell phone providers are now making "smart" phones and it will be interesting to see which one may take marketshare from BBs and the iPhones. Note the real loser has been Motorola.

[ubizmo]

Originally Posted by Robert_K

I never said that a BlackBerry does not have those "coolness" capabilities but you have to admit that the iPhone outperforms RIM in mobile multimedia in everyway right now. Saying "BlackBerries can play digital music!" is like saying "My new car has AIRBAGS!"

Agreed. But that makes it curioser and curioser that the North American Blackberry home page features...mp3 player!

The point I am trying to make here is that Apple doesn't come close to RIM when it comes to enterprise integration.. locked down or not. That DOES greatly affect the decision of IT organizations when looking for a mobile solution and why most do not use iPhones. Enterprise integration is RIM's bread & butter and without it they would not still have the marketshare they currently have.

That may be their bread and butter, but RIM seems to be keenly interested in getting some new bread and butter, from the consumer market. It's not just about IT organizations anymore. The BB is now being placed right in the thick of the consumer market as well. That doesn't imply that it's no longer in the business domain. It does imply, however, that it's perfectly fair to evaluate the BB as a consumer device.

Saying RIM is a sinking ship because they do not make a device that can compete with the iPhone on the "multimedia and coolness" factor is mute because that's not where RIM puts its priorities.

I think we can both agree that RIM is not a sinking ship, period. But I don't agree that the competition between the BB and the iPhone (and Android, et al) is "mute." The fact is that RIM has gone out of its way to enter the consumer market. The question is whether they can stay competitive in that market. If not, the ship still won't sink; it'll just take on a little water. Similarly, if the iPhone doesn't pan out as a business device, its ship won't sink either.

Both devices would like to conquer both worlds. It remains to be seen whether either one, or another contender, can do it.

Ubizmo

[ArgonNJ]

Looks like BGR has something to say on this.

RIMxxx8217;s Mike Lazaridis wants manufacturers to limit your data usage « Boy Genius Report

Lazaridis comes off a bit short sighted here and it obvious he sets the tone at RIM and why they have been so slow in moving forward in the rapidly changing smart phone market. And what is he talking about "super apps"? As an example he used RIM's craptastic Facebook application. If this is what this buffoon considers "super" then RIM is in bigger trouble then I originally feared.

[ubizmo]

Data conservation is, in my opinion, the main thing that kept the Sidekick from getting very far in the market. The SK has a bad reputation, mostly among people who have never used one. The fact is, the SK user experience is still one of the best around. The keyboards are the best I've seen on any phone, but that's hardware. They have had push email since their launch in 2002. They pioneered the modern App Store concept. The UI is arguably more intuitive than the iPhone's, and unquestionably moreso than RIM's. The continuous active sync of email, contacts, calendar, and notes makes possible the Desktop Interface, which is almost complete access to the SK's functions from any computer on the web--included in the basic service plan. Outlook sync is available, at an extra charge, I believe. I never needed it, so never used it and can't comment on that. But from the standpoint of a consumer/user, I still think it offered a superb experience.

There were only two things wrong, and they are why I no longer have a SK.

One was the inability of Danger's infrastructure to keep up with growing traffic. The result was increasingly frequent outages, and unpredictable POP mail collection intervals. I left at around the time Microsoft bought Danger, so I don't know if this has improved.

The other thing was data conservation. Although other carriers around the world picked up the SK, T-Mobile US was, and is, their main partner. T-Mobile decided to make the SK a discount smartphone. For a relatively low rate, you got unlimited data and unlimited SMS. To contain costs, however, T-Mobile kept a tight lid on applications that involved data transfer. Even though data was "unlimited" in concept, it was in effect limited by the apps you could use, and there is no way to get an app on the SK except through its Download Catalog. You weren't going to see any apps like Pandora, and even the voice recording app that did make it into the Catalog was limited to a short clip, so that sending it as an email attachment wouldn't use a lot of data bandwidth.

I don't know if things have changed. I left at the end of 2007. But I believed then that T-Mobile's desire to keep the SK on a short data leash held it back from its true potential.

Turning to the BB (finally), I do see a few indications of this sort of thing. One of my pet peeves is the inability to edit quoted text in reply emails. This is something the SK did very well, supporting smart reflowing of text and inserting of '>' characters, nested when necessary. I couldn't understand why the BB, known for its great email functionality, couldn't do this. It was explained to me that it had something to do with data conservation, an explanation that I still don't really understand. Maybe it's not even correct.

I've also been puzzled as to why the OS doesn't allow us to select multiple photos to attach to an email, other than by going through the "attach file" dialog multiple times. My best guess is that this is a way of discouraging the sending of multiple photos, without making it impossible outright.

Still, the BB does support apps like Pandora and WunderRadio, that use large amounts of data, so RIM can't be that obsessive about data conservation.

Ubizmo

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by ubizmo

Still, the BB does support apps like Pandora and WunderRadio, that use large amounts of data, so RIM can't be that obsessive about data conservation.

AFAIK, these apps go through the carrier's WAP APN, and not RIM's, so they are not compressed.

[ubizmo]

Originally Posted by dc/dc

AFAIK, these apps go through the carrier's WAP APN, and not RIM's, so they are not compressed.

Thank you, I didn't consider that.

Ubizmo

[CanuckBB]

Originally Posted by ubizmo

That may be their bread and butter, but RIM seems to be keenly interested in getting some new bread and butter, from the consumer market. It's not just about IT organizations anymore. The BB is now being placed right in the thick of the consumer market as well. That doesn't imply that it's no longer in the business domain. It does imply, however, that it's perfectly fair to evaluate the BB as a consumer device.



I think we can both agree that RIM is not a sinking ship, period. But I don't agree that the competition between the BB and the iPhone (and Android, et al) is "mute." The fact is that RIM has gone out of its way to enter the consumer market. The question is whether they can stay competitive in that market. If not, the ship still won't sink; it'll just take on a little water. Similarly, if the iPhone doesn't pan out as a business device, its ship won't sink either.

Both devices would like to conquer both worlds. It remains to be seen whether either one, or another contender, can do it.

Ubizmo

And the annoucement of the new, free, BES for SMB is going to deal a serious blow to the iPhone and WinMo devices in that arena. If I can get BES free, not have to pay extra for may data plan, I'm going to lok more seriously at a BB for business.

RIM needs to upgrade the browser. In the end, the BB should emerge as a business device that's really good at multimedia, while the iPhone will likely settle for being a great multimedia device that can do business pretty well. WinMo will continue to suck at everything.

RIM and Apple don't compete head-to-head in the entire market. They overlap at some point. Both will do well in their respective markets.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by CanuckBB

And the annoucement of the new, free, BES for SMB is going to deal a serious blow to the iPhone and WinMo devices in that arena. If I can get BES free, not have to pay extra for may data plan, I'm going to lok more seriously at a BB for business.

Yes and no. Your IT department has to install the software on the Exchange server. This is something they may or may not want to do. Active Sync is built into Exchange and requires no additional action or suport to function.

[NJBlackBerry]

Built into Exchange 2007 - not earlier versions.

And anyone who exposes their network without a firewall infront - or ISA - is simply asking for problems.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by NJBlackBerry

And anyone who exposes their network without a firewall infront - or ISA - is simply asking for problems

?? What does running Activsync on Exchange have to do with running a firewall? We use a firewall and use Activesync on our servers.

[CanuckBB]

Originally Posted by ArgonNJ

Yes and no. Your IT department has to install the software on the Exchange server. This is something they may or may not want to do. Active Sync is built into Exchange and requires no additional action or suport to function.

Or any other server.

And I'm not looking at individuals here. I'm looking at the organization level. The main deal breaker for RIM in the SMB has always been cost. Now a major component of that cost has been removed.

[Robert_K]

Originally Posted by ArgonNJ

RIM is more interested in the consumer market then Apple is in the Enterprise one.

Of course they are, they've already conquered the enterprise market, it would only make sense to expand their business by expanding their demographic sense there is a much bigger consumer market for it than there was 5-6 years ago. Cell phones in general have been slowly evolving into Smart Phones for the past decade due to more demand by consumers to be constantly connected to internet and multimedia compounded by the incentive service carriers have to sell consumers additional data plans.

Originally Posted by ArgonNJ

The consumer market is where the real money is.

If that were 100% true then iPhone would have overtaken RIM in smartphone marketshare. Truth is BOTH markets are equally as important. In retrospect say RIM makes this very dependable truck that quickly becomes very popular for construction / general labor commercial use. Once they corner that market they realize that the same truck can be tweaked to accomodate personal consumers for general purposes. It would only make sense to invest some money into marketing their truck to consumers of another market so they can expand their business and marketsharte since afterall, the point of business is to expand. In this example Apple only makes a basic Ford Ranger that is less practical for business use but not totally incapable of being useful for some business purposes and RIM makes GM trucks in many different configuration that are very adaptable to business but can also be setup simply for daily use though it might be a little to rough cut for some consumers.

Originally Posted by ubizmo

Agreed. But that makes it curioser and curioser that the North American Blackberry home page features...mp3 player!

They gotta tout SOMETHING you know. They're not going to completely ignore the fact that they can handle basic multimedia functions.

Originally Posted by ubizmo

That may be their bread and butter, but RIM seems to be keenly interested in getting some new bread and butter, from the consumer market. It's not just about IT organizations anymore. The BB is now being placed right in the thick of the consumer market as well. That doesn't imply that it's no longer in the business domain. It does imply, however, that it's perfectly fair to evaluate the BB as a consumer device.

For sure, no argument there, they jumped head first into the consumer market and I agree the critizism they have got so far is deserved. Like I said before, compared to the iPhone they just don't have the same "coolness" factor mainly because they are attempting to adapt something they spent over decade designing to be used for business into a consumer device to compete with the iPhone, which was designed from the ground up to appeal to consumers who want ease of use and "neato" factor.

Originally Posted by ubizmo

I think we can both agree that RIM is not a sinking ship, period. But I don't agree that the competition between the BB and the iPhone (and Android, et al) is "mute." The fact is that RIM has gone out of its way to enter the consumer market. The question is whether they can stay competitive in that market. If not, the ship still won't sink; it'll just take on a little water. Similarly, if the iPhone doesn't pan out as a business device, its ship won't sink either.

Again, I agree, RIM will continue to be on top of its enterprise market if they know what's good for them. This is the same can be said with Apple. One thing about Apple is from the day they begin to create a product they know EXACTLY who their market is and stay 100% true to their plans without waivering. This is why they still do not offer replaceable batteries, expanded enterprise use, nor bother with FIPS 140-2 security compliance certification. Its not part of the original plan and very seldom does Apple vear off their predetermined path.

Originally Posted by ubizmo

Both devices would like to conquer both worlds. It remains to be seen whether either one, or another contender, can do it.

Ubizmo

In the end I still believe the only way any company can completely corner the smart phone market is too offer a smart phone package that integrates the enterprise managbility and security that can also perform as well and as seemless as an iPhone. Currently Android has the potential if Google plays their cards right. The only way I see RIM doing this is by completely redesigning their OS. 5.0 is not good enough.. it has to much faster and seemless for the end user if they want to accomplish the same results.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by Robert_K

If that were 100% true then iPhone would have overtaken RIM in smartphone marketshare.

How does me saying that the consumer market is where the money is translate into how well RIM is doing against the iphone?? The consumer market is the brass ring, everyone is competing heavily for this segment. My statement was simple and made no mention of either company's market share in the segment.

[LunkHead]

Chips ahoy matey... All aboard the sinking ship... We have more holes than an Iraqi submarine...

Stay afloat..... If not RIM will toss you a life vest...

I love me... Nite, nite

[TBOLTRAM]

The master has spoken.