[mriff]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Im still waiting on someone to prove evolution to me. Until then I don't want it taught to my children in public school or atleast teach it as it is THEORY.. Have you ever personally witnessed something evolve?

In your lifetime, many organisms have evolved. Ever heard of drug resistant viruses? Evolution has been proven time and time again. You just choose to ignore the overwhelming evidence. And yes, yet again, it is a Scientific Theory which means that there is a body of evidence to support the theory beyond all doubt. Look up what scientific theory means, or go back a page or two in this thread and see for yourself. One more question, if they don't teach evolution in science class, what should they teach? Just let me get this straight. Because you don't beleive in evolution, then creationism should be taught in science class? This is a very important question and I'd like your straight answer.

To disagree with something necessitates an understanding of what you are disagreeing with. I don't see that as the case here Dawg. You obviously have never studied evolution and the science behind it. You just simply disagree.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by Dawg

So in answer to your statment about asking Catholics no I haven't asked any of them. I do how ever know many of them that have become recent Christians.

Oh great. So now I'm not a Christian because I'm Catholic? Really Dawg.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

Wow, I never though a simple birthday wish would evolve (for the lack of a better word) into such a debate.

Jump on in jsconyers! If you have children and they go to public school, should evoultion be taught in science class? Come on man, no fence sitting in this thread!

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by mriff

Oh great. So now I'm not a Christian because I'm Catholic? Really Dawg.

Do you pray to God or to his Mother? If you chose his mother then No I do not believe you are a Christian. Have you gotten down on your knees and confessed your Sins to Christ (Not a Priest) and asked him to come in to your heart as your personal Savior. Were you Baptized or sprinkled. Baptized to me is total submersion after you accept Christ as your Savior. This is how the Bible tells us to become a Christian.

I have been to many Catholic Churches and I have never once seen a Holy Bible in the hands of the members. Everything is read by the Priest. Not to say its not a beautiful ceremony but I went away feeling empty. I didn't receive any spiritual nourishment.

The Bible tells me I can go straight to God with my troubles I don't have to pray to his mother and have her ask Jesus to forgive me for my sins.

The Vatican is held higher than the local church and to me that is wrong every church is the house of God or should be. Now that I know you are Catholic I understand why you can believe in both.

To me God is non denominational as long as you believe in Him and that only he can save you. Then you are a Christian. Christianity and Religion are not the same thing. There are many religions in the world but only one Christianity.

[mriff]

Well, I'm not even going to go there Dawg. Afraid of what I might say. You have a very warped sense of what Catholocism is. My Mother and Father (may they rest in peace) would be shocked and horrified at what you have written and they were devout Catholics.

And this is a thread about evolution so I'll stick to that.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by mriff

Well, I'm not even going to go there Dawg. Afraid of what I might say. You have a very warped sense of what Catholocism is. My Mother and Father (may they rest in peace) would be shocked and horrified at what you have written and they were devout Catholics.

And this is a thread about evolution so I'll stick to that.

No problem, as I said I didn't want to voice my opinion but you continued the subject.

Just as a side note: See you said they were devout Catholics not Christians.

I am a Christian not a Baptist, Methodist or other denomination.

[jsconyers]

Originally Posted by mriff

Jump on in jsconyers! If you have children and they go to public school, should evoultion be taught in science class? Come on man, no fence sitting in this thread!

No sitting on the fence? This is a pretty heated debate. Having said that, I will throw my opinion out there. I would consider myself agnostic at this point. I believe there is a God, I just have too many questions to fully believe in any ONE religion. There are too many gray areas in my mind.

I do believe in evolution to a degree. As stated, there is too much proven evidence to denounce it's existence. I would never denounce anyones beliefs or religion. That is one of the greatest freedoms in the country, IMO.

To answer the original question, should evolution be taught in school? I am not one for religion of any sort to be pushed onto someone. Should evolution be taught in science class? Sure. It has scientific proof to back it up. I believe they should present the material in a manner where it is not forced upon the students. I don't think it should be presented in a manner that denounces others beliefs as well.

If they are to teach creatism in school as a belief, I think they should teach all forms of creatism, as well as evolution.

My $0.02

[mriff]

Wirelessly posted

Dawg, Catholocism is a Christian religion. I didn't think something so obvious needed to be stated.

[Dawg]

I am not religious. Religion is what keeps a lot of people out of Heaven.

[test54]

I attended one of the Largest Evangelical Christian Colleges and had plenty of Catholic friends there. There is conflict amongst all the branches of Christianity, nothing special about the Evangelicals and the Catholics. To say that Catholics are any less Christian than anyone else is simply ignorant or completely biased.

when you understand both views you see that the core is the same.

also to believe on evolution does not make one a non-believer, plenty of people who are Christians believe in different thing, again its the core beliefs that remain the same.

[djm2]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Im still waiting on someone to prove evolution to me. Until then I don't want it taught to my children in public school or atleast teach it as it is THEORY.. Have you ever personally witnessed something evolve?

Yes I have. Generations of fruit flies, for one. Also have developed different plant flower variations through selective cross-breeding.

[djm2]

Originally Posted by JSanders

Sorry, djm2, you just don't know enough about evangelical Christianity to understand the difference.

The two are diametrically opposing views. Sure, there are those who do believe the Bible is a errant, historical document. And they may pick and choose from the Bible what and what not they wish to believe. And they may consider themselves Christian. That is fine. If it is in the Bible, I will believe it as the true word of God. If it is a grey area in the Bible, I will seek counsel on it.

But that is all really beside the point when asked the question, "Do you believe Christ died on the cross for you and that you are saved for eternity by His giving his life for you?" The answer to that question is all that really matters.

Sorry, I certainly do know enough about the evangelicals to explicitly reject that belief system for myself. If it works for you, great, but we do in this country still have a separation of church and state, and I will stoutly reject any efforts to implant specific theological concepts as substitutes for science.

Furthermore, I'd encourage you to think carefully about even wanting to do that, because tides turn and the next thing you know another group with vastly different views might become ascendent, and they would inject their theology into the schools once precedent has been established.

[JSanders]

Ah, there is your mistake. Only that the state shall not impose a religion on the people is a protected right. The remainder is your (poor) interpretation of that, and your wish to impose your will on the people.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

To answer the original question, should evolution be taught in school? I am not one for religion of any sort to be pushed onto someone. Should evolution be taught in science class? Sure. It has scientific proof to back it up. I believe they should present the material in a manner where it is not forced upon the students. I don't think it should be presented in a manner that denounces others beliefs as well.

If they are to teach creatism in school as a belief, I think they should teach all forms of creatism, as well as evolution.

My $0.02

See, that wasn't so hard was it?

But I get back to my position, stated many times in this thread, that creationism is theology, not science. And that evolution has been proven beyond doubt. And if one actually studies the Theory of Evolution, that understanding can become very clear. So that's the science. Teach that in science class. Don't try to teach the 'problems' with the theory, all those supposed problems (put forth mostly by the Discovery Institute) have been debunked. And every futue 'problem' with the the Theory of Evolution will be debunked as well. Just teach the science.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by JSanders

Ah, there is your mistake. Only that the state shall not impose a religion on the people is a protected right. The remainder is your (poor) interpretation of that, and your wish to impose your will on the people.

This is causing an irony overload......

[JSanders]

It is exactly that. He doesn't want all beliefs taught, he wishes (in the great liberal fanaticism of the day) to censure other thought.

[mriff]

I was thinking just the opposite. That you want your (religious) beliefs taught in a public school system and have other ideas excluded.

[djm2]

Well, I too am struck with the irony. I think I've just added some new questions to my hiring interview guides.

[djm2]

Hey Mriff, I too love Kuhn's book. But isn't Karl Popper and his discussion of falsifiability also germane to this discussion -- perhaps even central to the core?

[mriff]

LOL! Ah yes, it would be.