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Old 06-21-2007, 11:01 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by test54 View Post
well, any attractive woman is looking more for the value of the toy than the size of the tool.

And i understand the argument about toy vs. tool but RIM has gotten into the toy market haven't they, the 8800, 8830 i would still call "tool" but the 8300 and 8100 would lean more towards toy - camera, new media options are certainly not for the business customers. For the most part they do the same things so I dont think that argument holds as much merit as it did even 2 years ago.
Absolutely. I remember before Blackberry added the phone option a few years ago and RIM was emphatic about they are 'business device' and that they are about reliability, and practicality and all that other doublespeak for- WE'RE MONTHS/YEARS AWAY FROM CATCHING UP TO THE TECHNOLOGY!

I've been a big RIM user for about 6 years and I believe they still dominate push email and essentially get by with the bare minimum in every other dept including phone/organizer/camera and most of all HORRIBLE BUILD QUALITY!

If/when someone (can't imagine that Nokia hasn't mastered this yet!) can't the PUSH email concept down properly we'll see the end of RIM as we know it. Apple may go there with iPhone 2.0- it could easily happen. Also, consider the desriability of the iPhone if it allows iTunes to go WIRELESS.

WOULDN'T THAT BE JUST HUGE!
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:05 AM   #42
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I really don't understand all the heat around this. As I said previously, the two devices at this point have very little to do with each other. They appeal to different consumer bases. Corporations are NOT going to switch to the iPhone, and I don't care how much interest folks in the field might have in it. People that depend on mobile email for their businesses are NOT going to switch to the iPhone. Now all of that might change by the second or third generation of iPhone, but I would tend to doubt it.

The only BB's that will be affected by the iPhone, if any are, would be the Pearl and the Curve because they're RIM's consumer devices.

Beyond all of that, I'm not ready to declare the iPhone a success. It looks like a cool device, but it's still lacking a lot of stuff even for smartphone enthusiasts. There's no guarantee that Apple has a massive hit on their hands yet. That company, like any other, has more than a few misses on its resume.
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:12 AM   #43
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iTunes is not going wireless. You still have to go back to your mac or pc, and sync to get your itunes on the iPhone. You have no option for a subscription model. On the other hand, Microsoft already has WiFi built into their MP3 player, and it is very likely that instead of having 5,000 songs or 10,000 songs on your Zune, you'll have the opertunity to listen to any one of 2 million songs because of it's networking ability.

Even if Apple did follow along those lines, it does no good without a subscription model. The subscription model, and network-based devices is always going to be the better way to go.

Lastly, Apple has never understood business. They like to play hide the football and make a splash, while the rest of the business world outlines where they want to go and tells us, so IT can plan ahead.

Remember when Apple had a version of Unix? They just up and killed it. And when they had the 68040 processors? They just up and decided to kill those, and users were forced to upgrade to PowerPC processors. Then you had Apple with all these supposed great G5 processors. Kicking butt on intel so they said, and then all of the sudden, they kill it, and immediately claim 40% gains in performance by switching to intel. And now all those PPC machines have less and less resale value, and since Apple is so closed, it was never like anyone could upgrade them anyway. apple just wants you to sell it off and buy a new one. That's always what Apple wants. Sell it, buy a new one.

They've always been bad for business, and frankly, I don't see anything that can be done on a Mac that can't be done better on a PC. That includes using groupware with Blackberry.

-Alex
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:20 AM   #44
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thank you balckberryer, you proved my point.
the pearl and curve are not business oriented devices and yet they sell in huge numbers. RIM has moved in the consumer end of the industry with these device. and i would say that alot of those pearl and curve users are not necessarily buying them for BES or business email (example: my 3 nephews). I agree that the 88xx series is really a different model but even those have enhanced media options. but if you think that RIM's future lies in more business oriented devices then i would disagree, they will cater to both which in fact does put them into consumer smartphones market with apple.

jewberry, i agree once push email comes from multiple sources then RIM will have to make some changes, possible getting rid of the wait on BIS could be an option but i agree that BB does email better than any other device mainly because of the BES & push technology.
and as for wireless iTunes, i think it will be much faster to be rolled out than most think, think of the options with iTunes built-in and bluetooth, wifi enabled ipod/iphone to maintain your music/podcasts/movies/tvshows from anywhere. But again that goes for the consumer user as all Business users dont listen to music or watch movies while riding the train/subway to work.

flame away...
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Old 06-21-2007, 11:26 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Alexzander View Post
iTunes is not going wireless. You still have to go back to your mac or pc, and sync to get your itunes on the iPhone. You have no option for a subscription model. On the other hand, Microsoft already has WiFi built into their MP3 player, and it is very likely that instead of having 5,000 songs or 10,000 songs on your Zune, you'll have the opertunity to listen to any one of 2 million songs because of it's networking ability.

Even if Apple did follow along those lines, it does no good without a subscription model. The subscription model, and network-based devices is always going to be the better way to go.

Lastly, Apple has never understood business. They like to play hide the football and make a splash, while the rest of the business world outlines where they want to go and tells us, so IT can plan ahead.

Remember when Apple had a version of Unix? They just up and killed it. And when they had the 68040 processors? They just up and decided to kill those, and users were forced to upgrade to PowerPC processors. Then you had Apple with all these supposed great G5 processors. Kicking butt on intel so they said, and then all of the sudden, they kill it, and immediately claim 40% gains in performance by switching to intel. And now all those PPC machines have less and less resale value, and since Apple is so closed, it was never like anyone could upgrade them anyway. apple just wants you to sell it off and buy a new one. That's always what Apple wants. Sell it, buy a new one.

They've always been bad for business, and frankly, I don't see anything that can be done on a Mac that can't be done better on a PC. That includes using groupware with Blackberry.

-Alex
Al, I'm not talking about a subscription- I'm talking about enabling iTunes on the iPhone. It could be done VERY easily and it would be absolutely HUGE. Think about it- you hear and song on the (sat)radio in your car and at the stoplight you pull out the iPhone, search it and download it before the light turns green. Personally I believe that is Apple's end game as opposed to the business email market but that remains to be seen.

People were basically paying $500 for high end vid iPods in the begining for its not a major stretch (for some) to pay another $100 and get a boatload of other cool features.

Again, I believe Apple's endgame is wireless iTunes.
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:29 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swerveit View Post
would you run your business with a iphone??
if your answers yes?, good luck with bankruptcy!
haha - thats funny, very true............iPhone is just a novelty and you are right - they are just showing the fancy parts of it - lets see how it really responds.... .Apple is riding the iPod success hard!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:33 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by joespys View Post
haha - thats funny, very true............iPhone is just a novelty and you are right - they are just showing the fancy parts of it - lets see how it really responds.... .Apple is riding the iPod success hard!!!!!!!!!
totally joe. but this iPhone is REALLY iPod 2.0! I just realized this as I was typing my last message. The phone aspect is really a bonus to the central purpose- DIGITAL MUSIC SALES!
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Old 06-21-2007, 12:36 PM   #48
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Apple has been successful before the Ipod. You been to a mall with an apple store in it lately? They do pretty well at selling computers as well as ipods. You canxxx8217;t keep making money off of hype there is substance to there products. Hate or Love Apple they will be relevant as long as Steve jobs are at the helm.
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Old 06-21-2007, 05:40 PM   #49
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To add to that, the phone runs a version of their OSX, its not a stretch to see them adding one of their own apps to the phone.
their business model with the iTunes is to use it to sell their hardware, they will do the same with the phone, use iTunes to help sell the ipod part of the device and let the OS sell the other parts. They are currently using this model with the appletv, use the coming HD content to sell the hardware based on it capability.
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Old 06-21-2007, 05:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by joespys View Post
haha - thats funny, very true............iPhone is just a novelty and you are right - they are just showing the fancy parts of it - lets see how it really responds.... .Apple is riding the iPod success hard!!!!!!!!!
You could then use that arguement to say that RIM is riding the push email success, as it was and is the best feature by far on the device. I'm sure their were RIM fans back in the day who were not happy to see the phones introduced, then the browser, then the media player, and it will continue. if the product is good, BB or whatever, why would the company not continue to branch out on its options..i guess by your arguement the ipod is a novelty too right? how about the game consoles that dont make money but they sell the games at huge margins? come on.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:41 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by jewberry View Post
Al, I'm not talking about a subscription- I'm talking about enabling iTunes on the iPhone. It could be done VERY easily and it would be absolutely HUGE. Think about it- you hear and song on the (sat)radio in your car and at the stoplight you pull out the iPhone, search it and download it before the light turns green. Personally I believe that is Apple's end game as opposed to the business email market but that remains to be seen.

People were basically paying $500 for high end vid iPods in the begining for its not a major stretch (for some) to pay another $100 and get a boatload of other cool features.

Again, I believe Apple's endgame is wireless iTunes.
Apple has only sold an average of 20 songs per iPod. In addition, they'd rather sell you the computer that acts as the digital hub, then let buy just the iPhone, and download your music directly to it. Those downloads would have to happen over AT&Ts network. Each song is 3 MBs give or take. AT&T won't want that traffic over their network.

I could be way off base here, but I don't think I am. I don't think Apple will want to do even WiFi based iTunes like Microsoft would. Their thinking is, if they do that, they have to change their DRM. Right now, you can send to an iPod, or iPhone, but not the reverse. The DRM is built that way. It would open a whole new can of worms for them.

Microsoft's is far easier. It simply checks to see if you are a subscriber, and then it updates your DRM to include that song for a limited time. Every week, it requires an update, or you lose the ability to play the song. That way, any library you have stops working a short time after you kill your subscription. The subscription itself is the "keep alive" agent. Apple never went down this road at all with FairPlay.

Now, I do realize things can change. But if I know Steve Jobs, he won't allow it. He believes all you customers do not want rented music. He believes you want to own every single song in your library, forever. I personally believe songs come and go in and out of style, and a rented approve, if the cost is low enough, is better. But perhaps I represent a smaller market and Jobs is right. Who knows. What I do know is, I own 3 iPod, and I don't use them anymore. After blowing $1,700 in one year on songs I don't even really care to listen to anymore, I realized that I didn't want to delete them simply because I paid for them. But they are causing clutter, and I don't really care all but maybe a hundred of them. Same goes for the audio books. I purchased about 200 audio books. I have listened to maybe 3 of them more than once. The rest sit in storage. Renting would have been so much better.

Because of my views on the iPod, and iTunes, I don't really care for the iPod part of the iPhone. That alone kills half teh reason to buy one. The mail is not as good as what I have in the BB. So that's nail #2. Lack of software, is nail #3. No GPS, nail #4. And I could go on and on with this.

I'm sure it will do well. I won't be surprised if it does carve a new market for itself. All I can say is, it's not right for. And I don't think it's good for business users for all the reasons I already mentioned. I honestly see this as a toy, that will get boring quickly. Video on a 3" screen is super cool the first time you see it. When I got my shinny new PSP, everyone was bowled over when they saw SpiderMan the movie on it. Believe me, it got old. I rarely ever watch it now. It collects dust, just like my iPods collect dust. The two devices that actually get used are the BB and the Zune. The Zune because I can download several albums I have never heard, then go through them later on when I am on a plane. If I hate them, I delete them. If I like em, I keep em. That model doesn't exist on the iPod. There is no exploring on the iPod. You buy what you are sure you want to keep. Or you rip what you already own. That's not exploring music. Believe me, you will truly understand freedom to explore with a Zune.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:50 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackberryer View Post
Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8830/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

I really don't think the two phones have much to do with each other. BB's are first and foremost communication devices. iPhones are first and foremost entertainment devices. I really don't think they appeal to the same customer base, save for all the gadget hounds out there.

My own thoughts on the iPhone: it'll probably be a cool device come the next generation.
You are absolutely right. iPhone is limted in business functionality. All email will be done through POP. Apple does not have an agreement with Microsoft for use with Exchange. I don't think iPhone will have the critical apps that Blackberry owners have grown to love.
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:59 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Alex Alexzander View Post
Who knows. What I do know is, I own 3 iPod, and I don't use them anymore. After blowing $1,700 in one year on songs I don't even really care to listen to anymore, I realized that I didn't want to delete them simply because I paid for them.
Whooa. Hold on a sec here- you actually PAY FOR MUSIC? Why would anyone do that given the prevalence of bittorent? 1-Click gets you an entire catalogue from virtually any artist! I know the mass market can't figure it out/doesn't have the time, but you're obviously tech savvy. Why would you blow that kind of money? Surely it's not the completely bogus IP issue is it? I mean how is downloading music any different from recording it off the radio or borrowing your friend's CD collection? As long as you're not reselling it I believe it is legal and ethical.
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:00 PM   #54
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Alex, i do have to give you my take on a few things.
I dont see the problem with wifi iTunes, why would it need to be over the AT&T network. I know it has in the past but thats because the devices were not wifi enabled. There is a version of OSX in there and I know i can get song via wifi on my powerbook.
As for iTunes on it, well also their current version of iTunes allows you to view and play other people's library of songs as long as they are on the same network, I use this all the time in the airports.

Their money is made from all the hardware, computers and ipods are where the higher margin of profit are, not the songs. therefore they are using the iTunes to generate hardware sales. Your arguement of what they want you to but is a little off as the phone is as much as their mac mini's are.
Also, you seems to really think that their DRM is holding back iphone iTunes use, they have the capability to do what they want with respect to moving songs from iphone to any other device, but again its a future consideration as iTunes is not going to be on it right now.

Zune has a good showing right now but it will be hurt by several things, its ugly as sin and its made by a company that alot people have grown to dislike.

But like everything the BB, iphone and Zune are all good for the market as they all push for newer and better devices in the future.
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Last edited by test54; 06-21-2007 at 08:03 PM..
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:48 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jewberry View Post
Whooa. Hold on a sec here- you actually PAY FOR MUSIC? Why would anyone do that given the prevalence of bittorent? 1-Click gets you an entire catalogue from virtually any artist! I know the mass market can't figure it out/doesn't have the time, but you're obviously tech savvy. Why would you blow that kind of money? Surely it's not the completely bogus IP issue is it? I mean how is downloading music any different from recording it off the radio or borrowing your friend's CD collection? As long as you're not reselling it I believe it is legal and ethical.

Why don't I download music from bit torrent? Hmmm.... Cause I'm not a lair or a thief... That's why. Sure I can, but I don't. Don't get me started on why you shouldn't pirate. We'll both be here until we can't remember why.
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:51 PM   #56
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Here is Gartner's report:

Macworld: News: Gartner to IT: Avoid Apple's iPhone
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Old 06-22-2007, 12:20 AM   #57
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Cool 4me???

retired.. love push email..had email on other phones and I switched to the berry for that.... had a super sonyE that did pics and video and music well... too heavy compared to my nano for music.. I'm typing this on a juiced up 17" macbook pro. I love Apple. No GSP? No iPhone. Telnav is worth the price of the device... using an 8800..have had 8700 and 7130... wife has "red" pearl.. I'd get a curve if it had GSP.. I message and email more than anything... would like full html.. all the phones make compromises and I am right in Apple's sights as a guy who could, would and should buy an iPhone...will I? doubt it because the things I use the Berry for the iPhone just doesn't do... yet.
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Old 06-22-2007, 02:33 AM   #58
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It's not an either/or choice: I am willing to bet that many, many BlackBerry users also end up with an iPhone as well.

As others have pointed out, it depends on what one's focus is in using the device. The BB is definitely the better business tool...the better for entering text.

But the iPhone will be better at multimedia and web browsing, plus it will have the status symbol "bling" appeal.

So it's not really a question of which is better, but which is more suited for the individual user. Plus, many people may end up with both devices.
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Old 06-22-2007, 05:18 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by joespys View Post
Ok here we go - 10 days left before the iPhone tries to dominate. Yes it's nifty and may seem cool.

But I've become diehard Blackberry and come on I don't even care that there is no HTML email (yes I know some beta 3rd-party software) . .

So what are your thoughts? To iPhone or Not to iPhone?
The 88xx series with the microSD capability make it a formidable opponent of iPhone. In addition the memory storage is removable providing added flexibility and expandability of digital files, unlike iPhone.

Can you say iPhone killer.
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Old 06-22-2007, 05:21 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by thought View Post
It's not an either/or choice: I am willing to bet that many, many BlackBerry users also end up with an iPhone as well.

As others have pointed out, it depends on what one's focus is in using the device. The BB is definitely the better business tool...the better for entering text.

But the iPhone will be better at multimedia and web browsing, plus it will have the status symbol "bling" appeal.

So it's not really a question of which is better, but which is more suited for the individual user. Plus, many people may end up with both devices.
But if you have the ultimate phone/PDA (Blackberry) why not get the ultimate media player iPod, not iPhone. The iPhone is a downward step in the PDA market and downward in multimedia player. To me it is a losing situation. As a Blackberry ownwer it would make more sense to buy a iPod.
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