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View Poll Results: What is your opinion of the new Arizona Immigration Law?
All for it. Catch and deport the illegals. 9 45.00%
I'm for it but do not want racial profiling. 4 20.00%
I think it gives the Police too much power and infringes on citizens' rights. 4 20.00%
I don't care, pass me another beer! 3 15.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-2010, 09:15 PM   #1
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Arizona Enacts Stringent Law on Immigration - NYTimes.com
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Old 05-10-2010, 09:42 PM   #2
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kinda a funny coming from a country found on immigrants.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:42 AM   #3
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It's racist as written. There's no question.

I'm strongly opposed to illegal immigration. I want fences, I want enforceable laws, and I'm in favor of deportation if someone chose to enter illegally when a legal path was available. I'm also in favor of harsh penalties for those who engage in identity theft or commit other crimes against our true citizens while establishing an illegal presence here.

But I don't want anyone - let alone a law enforcement officer - empowered to "card" people based on the fact that they look Hispanic. If I have to choose between more illegals being caught based on a law that revolves around racism, and more of them getting away because justice in the US remains blind to things like color, I choose the latter.
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Old 05-11-2010, 12:02 PM   #4
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I'm Puertorican and I have the US citizenship since I born. I won't like to go to the US and be harrased by the police only because they may think I'm Ilegal because I'm a Latina. Thats not right.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:11 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by kathrynhr View Post
It's racist as written. There's no question.

I'm strongly opposed to illegal immigration. I want fences, I want enforceable laws, and I'm in favor of deportation if someone chose to enter illegally when a legal path was available. I'm also in favor of harsh penalties for those who engage in identity theft or commit other crimes against our true citizens while establishing an illegal presence here.

But I don't want anyone - let alone a law enforcement officer - empowered to "card" people based on the fact that they look Hispanic. If I have to choose between more illegals being caught based on a law that revolves around racism, and more of them getting away because justice in the US remains blind to things like color, I choose the latter.
It is NOT racist, as written. The language was lifted directly from the federal statutes (that currently are NOT enforced)... language has been added to specifically forbid racial profiling.

The law is a "secondary" law, meaning that there must have been a valid reason for the contact in the first place. And federal law has required all "aliens" to carry "papers" with them at all times since 1946... and it is nothing that is not required by any other country in the world... I spent time in Europe (Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary, Austria and Ireland) and was advised to carry my passport with me at all times to avoid any problems regarding my identity - it was the law, and I was expected to comply. But somehow when America does it, it's racist? Give me a break.

In the past 4 years, the city of Phoenix has had 4 police officers killed in the line of duty by illegal aliens - one of which had been deported 3 times and was back in the country illegally AGAIN. On the day that the governor signed the law, a sheriff's deputy was shot by an illegal alien with an AK-47 type assault rifle.

Come live in Arizona for a month, witness the crime, the shootings, the human smuggling, the drug smuggling, etc and walk in our shoes. All this law does is add state penalties to what is already a federal crime, and allow local law enforcement to detain those found to be illegal aliens who are living, working and committing crimes in our communities - whether they are Mexican, Nicaraguan, Canadian, German, Australian or Swiss.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:16 PM   #6
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I'm Puertorican and I have the US citizenship since I born. I won't like to go to the US and be harrased by the police only because they may think I'm Ilegal because I'm a Latina. Thats not right.
I understand your concerns, Giselle... but the law is written to specifically state:

1. There must be another valid reason for the contact - NOT JUST suspicion that one is an illegal alien.

2. There is specific language in the law to prevent racial profiling.

3. There must be a reason to suspect that the person is here illegally... like 27 people crammed into a volkswagon and NOT wearing clown costumes. Simply driving down the road or going about your legal business is not going to get anyone in any trouble.

Over 70% of the US citizens are in support of this law. And the majority of those who are beating their chests to protest have never read a single letter of the law.

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Old 05-11-2010, 01:22 PM   #7
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kinda a funny coming from a country found on immigrants.
There are rules for emigrating into the United States. Sneaking across the border and assuming someone else's identity in order to get a job is NOT on the list of acceptable behavior.

I welcome all immigrants to the US (and to Arizona), but do it legally. In 1986 President Ronald Reagan signed legislation granting amnesty to anyone who had entered the country illegally before January 1, 1982. Less that 25 years later, it's reported that there are between 12 and 20 MILLION illegal aliens in this country. We need to close the borders, figure out what to do with 20 millions aliens and start allowing LEGAL immigration to be the ONLY way to come to America.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:18 PM   #8
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I understand your concerns, Giselle... but the law is written to specifically state:

1. There must be another valid reason for the contact - NOT JUST suspicion that one is an illegal alien.

2. There is specific language in the law to prevent racial profiling.

3. There must be a reason to suspect that the person is here illegally... like 27 people crammed into a volkswagon and NOT wearing clown costumes. Simply driving down the road or going about your legal business is not going to get anyone in any trouble.

Over 70% of the US citizens are in support of this law. And the majority of those who are beating their chests to protest have never read a single letter of the law.

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I understand your opinion and I'm not against the law... I'm against the abuse on the streets and the fact that someone can get arrested only because a police think people are ilegal based on the fact that they look Hispanic.


Also we are talking about human people like you and me... not about aliens.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:29 PM   #9
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It is NOT racist, as written. The language was lifted directly from the federal statutes (that currently are NOT enforced)... language has been added to specifically forbid racial profiling.
I disagree, FJ. It doesn't matter if "language has been added." People act on their prejudices no matter what any piece of paper says. The bottom line is that it's highly unlikely that a cop in Arizona will suspect anyone of being an illegal immigrant who doesn't walk, talk, look or act like they are of Mexican or Central American descent.

For example, I'm sure it would never occur to them to ask for citizenship papers from someone like me when I have fair skin, blue eyes and an Appalachian accent. Someone like Giselle, however, who's as much a citizen as I am, might be asked to prove it. How is that situation right?

And suppose we two threw a girly party in Arizona and decided to sneak Noodle into the country to join us. Think they'd ever card Noodle, even though she's NOT a citizen??? I'd bet my entire life savings that it would not happen. Why? Because she's white.

I think most people would agree that there is NO WAY this law will be enforced fairly across all populations. Worse, I don't think the authors of the bill ever intended it to be.

Because of that, it is inherently racist. No matter what it says.

Edit: Yes, I read the bill (when it was still a bill).

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Old 05-11-2010, 02:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Giselle9938 View Post
I understand your opinion and I'm not against the law... I'm against the abuse on the streets and the fact that someone can get arrested only because a police think people are ilegal based on the fact that they look Hispanic.


Also we are talking about human people like you and me... not about aliens.
I understand your position and I respect it. And I do not use the term "alien" to be offensive... it's a legal term, which is defined as "any person who is not a citizen of the country in which he or she lives." (link)
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:40 PM   #11
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I disagree, FJ. It doesn't matter if "language has been added." People act on their prejudices no matter what any piece of paper says. The bottom line is that it's highly unlikely that a cop in Arizona will suspect anyone of being an illegal immigrant who doesn't walk, talk, look or act like they are of Mexican or Central American descent.

For example, I'm sure it would never occur to them to ask for citizenship papers from someone like me when I have fair skin, blue eyes and an Appalachian accent. Someone like Giselle, however, who's as much a citizen as I am, might be asked to prove it. How is that situation right?

And suppose we two threw a girly party in Arizona and decided to sneak Noodle into the country to join us. Think they'd ever card Noodle, even though she's NOT a citizen??? I'd bet my entire life savings that it would not happen. Why? Because she's white.

I think most people would agree that there is NO WAY this law will be enforced fairly across all populations. Worse, I don't think the authors of the bill ever intended it to be.

Because of that, it is inherently racist. No matter what it says.

Edit: Yes, I read the bill (when it was still a bill).
Fair enough... we just have to agree to disagree.

My daughter is married to a man of Hispanic heritage (his mom was from Mexico, his dad from Spain)... some of my grandkids are also, therefore, of Hispanic descent. I don't fear for his or their "safety".

I will also add that my son is a Phoenix cop, and he personally knew and worked with 2 of the 3 cops murdered by illegal aliens from south of the border (one was Mexican, one was from Nicaragua)... but he is NOT a racist... he's only trying to his job protecting his family and his community from ALL criminals. Statistically, a higher number of violent crimes are committed by people who are not here legally, and if we can simply remove them and their criminal activity, it makes his job easier and keeps us all safe.

Finally, there is a correct and legal way to come to this country, and I welcome any and all comers - all I ask is that they do it the correct way.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:53 PM   #12
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I understand your position and I respect it. And I do not use the term "alien" to be offensive... it's a legal term, which is defined as "any person who is not a citizen of the country in which he or she lives." (link)
Even if it is a legal term in my opinion it is offensive... I don't think any American, Canadian, Australian or European who come to my country (Puerto Rico) or any other latin country will be treated as a Alien.

I can't imagine anyone at our hotels or any other places saying "Hey, fair skin Alien would you like a Mimosa" or " Hey Bright eyes Alien did you enjoy your time here?" or "Awww how cute is your little Alien"

There is criminals from all types, White, Black, Hispanic, Europeans, Chinnese, Japanese... legals and Ilegals... there are Criminals Everywhere...

Why don't get focus on real criminals? Why just get focus on criminals from just one specific type?
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:54 PM   #13
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Finally, there is a correct and legal way to come to this country, and I welcome any and all comers - all I ask is that they do it the correct way.
THAT we can agree upon.

And I certainly agree that having illegal immigrants around drives up crime. My husband sees it in his job as well, even here in Ohio (attorney specializing in felony crimes).

I'm just uncomfortable with the consequences of this particular law.

I admit, I can't immediately think of an effective alternative.
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:01 PM   #14
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THAT we can agree upon.

And I certainly agree that having illegal immigrants around drives up crime. My husband sees it in his job as well, even here in Ohio (attorney specializing in felony crimes).

I'm just uncomfortable with the consequences of this particular law.

I admit, I can't immediately think of an effective alternative.
Agree... I think there would need to find out any other way to handle this issue without open a door to racist discrimination
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:27 PM   #15
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Why don't get focus on real criminals? Why just get focus on criminals from just one specific type?
One last comment... the fact that they are here illegally makes them criminals from the start. The broke the law as soon as they set foot on American soil without proper paperwork or going through legal channels. Therefore, this law IS focusing on "real criminals".

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Old 05-11-2010, 03:40 PM   #16
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This will be my final post on this subject...

I understand that some (maybe "most") of the illegals that are here are only trying to better themselves. The majority of them are probably NOT criminals (beyond the fact that they had to break the law to get here). And I understand that they are human beings, the same as all of us.

However, all you have to do is see the crime that SOME of them commit. See the gang activities that many are involved in, see the damage that they do to private land owner's property, see the piles of trash and garbage that they leave in the desert on their way to a better life... then see the horrendous injustice some of the receive at the hands of "coyotes" (human smugglers), see the Mexicans marching in the streets waiving Mexican flags, see the American kids chastised and singled out for wearing clothing depicting AMERICAN FLAGS...

I say close the border, secure the border and open the immigration process. But regardless of HOW one slices this issue, I believe that we can all agree that there are some serious problems that require fixing.

My comments are my personal opinion, and I don't ask that you necessarily agree with it. I respect that we all come from differing backgrounds and have differing opinions. That is what makes us great - the ability to agree, disagree, and even argue, yet continue to respect each other and remain friends.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:24 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kathrynhr View Post
I disagree, FJ. It doesn't matter if "language has been added." People act on their prejudices no matter what any piece of paper says. The bottom line is that it's highly unlikely that a cop in Arizona will suspect anyone of being an illegal immigrant who doesn't walk, talk, look or act like they are of Mexican or Central American descent.

For example, I'm sure it would never occur to them to ask for citizenship papers from someone like me when I have fair skin, blue eyes and an Appalachian accent. Someone like Giselle, however, who's as much a citizen as I am, might be asked to prove it. How is that situation right?

And suppose we two threw a girly party in Arizona and decided to sneak Noodle into the country to join us. Think they'd ever card Noodle, even though she's NOT a citizen??? I'd bet my entire life savings that it would not happen. Why? Because she's white.

I think most people would agree that there is NO WAY this law will be enforced fairly across all populations. Worse, I don't think the authors of the bill ever intended it to be.

Because of that, it is inherently racist. No matter what it says.

Edit: Yes, I read the bill (when it was still a bill).
Agreed!

there is no way to enforce this law without infringing on people's civil rights.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:43 PM   #18
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There are rules for emigrating into the United States. Sneaking across the border and assuming someone else's identity in order to get a job is NOT on the list of acceptable behavior.

I welcome all immigrants to the US (and to Arizona), but do it legally. In 1986 President Ronald Reagan signed legislation granting amnesty to anyone who had entered the country illegally before January 1, 1982. Less that 25 years later, it's reported that there are between 12 and 20 MILLION illegal aliens in this country. We need to close the borders, figure out what to do with 20 millions aliens and start allowing LEGAL immigration to be the ONLY way to come to America.
please come off the high horse. this county was founded on a new way of life, freedom etc. there was no right way to enter, people are pissed cause first they wanted govt support and now want a way to cut it down. period.

i'd take the illegals coming into this county working every day, scavenging for work vs the "legal" ones who come here are 55+ and are automatically given gov't housing, foodstamps, and social security.

spare me this nonsense of closing boarders.

the funny part is 90% of jobs these illegals do, no citizen wants to do them.... lol.

i have no problems with illegals that come here, work, contribute to society for them to get a better way of life. i have a problem with the "legal" ones who come here and just mooch.

where are those numbers? oh who cares they have a piece of paper....

as for the law, its racial profiling on a very large scale, this goes back to what? slavery where anybody not white was a slave.... property.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:06 AM   #19
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please come off the high horse. this county was founded on a new way of life, freedom etc. there was no right way to enter, people are pissed cause first they wanted govt support and now want a way to cut it down. period.

i'd take the illegals coming into this county working every day, scavenging for work vs the "legal" ones who come here are 55+ and are automatically given gov't housing, foodstamps, and social security.

spare me this nonsense of closing boarders.

the funny part is 90% of jobs these illegals do, no citizen wants to do them.... lol.

i have no problems with illegals that come here, work, contribute to society for them to get a better way of life. i have a problem with the "legal" ones who come here and just mooch.

where are those numbers? oh who cares they have a piece of paper....

as for the law, its racial profiling on a very large scale, this goes back to what? slavery where anybody not white was a slave.... property.
OK, so I said the my previous post was my last, but I cannot let this pass.

Yes, this country was founded on a new way - freedom. But we still have laws. Without laws, there is no freedom, only anarchy. There have been laws and requirements for immigration since 1924. It needs to be so. However, over the years, the "caps" have been modified to reflect a growing desire to emigrate to the USA.

The majority of people who want to come to this country are looking for "the American dream", and I find no fault in their desire to improve their lot in life. We must, however, control the influx. The vast majority of those coming to this country as immigrants are SEEKING jobs, but very few already HAVE jobs when they get here. The result? Government assistance programs are stressed. This stress on the system is caused by ALL age groups - babies, children, teens, young adults, middle-aged and seniors. If they can't provide for themselves, the government has to do the job for them. We're already running obscene budget deficits, and the influx of unfettered immigration puts an enormous strain on an a system already beyond the breaking point. To imply that only the 55+ immigrants (legal or otherwise) are sucking government resources is just plain wrong.

I have seen statements alluding to the illegal aliens doing jobs that no one else will do floating around for years, but it simply is not true. The issue really is that they are forced to work for below minimum wage jobs BECAUSE they are here illegally, and are prone to being taken advantage of. They are forced to live "underground", in the shadows of society because of their fear of ICE. The result of this is that employers who break the law to hire them, also pay them far less than they are worth, and pocket the profits that they earn on the back of these people. The majority of illegal aliens send the money that they do earn out of the country to their families, resulting on a negative effect on the US ecomony.

However, there is a disproportionate level of crime committed by these illegal aliens. The latest study from the Maricopa County Attorney's Office reports that 21.8% of Arizona's convicted felons are in the U.S. illegally; 18.5% of all Arizona property crimes are committed by illegal aliens; and that 15% of the inmates in the Maricopa county jails are illegally in the country; 9% of Maricopa county "residents" and 8% of Arizona "residents" are in the country illegally. (source: Undocumented immigrants causing more crime than citizens? - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com).

I have already stated that 3 Phoenix police officers have been gunned down by illegal aliens - one of which had been deported 3 times and was back again to kill a police officer. The news reports are full of stories of "drop houses" being discovered and raided on a daily basis. In case you didn't know, a "drop house" is a place where human smugglers hold their "cargo" for ransom and extortion after having brought them illegally into the country. A typical drop house will hold between 15 and 50 people (who have already paid upwards of $1000 USD to smuggle them into the US) as hostages and the "coyotes" (smugglers) demand additional money from their families to free them.

Closing the border is NOT nonsense. It's the only way to protect the sovereignty of the USA and to reduce the criminal activity associated with illegal immigration.

Now, I have voiced my opinion, and am done with this topic.
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:21 PM   #20
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Without laws, there is no freedom, only anarchy.

I have seen statements alluding to the illegal aliens doing jobs that no one else will do floating around for years, but it simply is not true.
In my opinion you are mainly wrong on both counts. No one is talking about having no laws, just having ones that do no completely hinge on violating citizens civil rights.

And where are the millions of people going to come from to take the low paying jobs in the construction, agricultural and other industries?


Closing the border is not practical and to continually state that it would solve the problem is simply believing in fairy tales....
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