[mriff]

Cheney slams Obama in speech - CNN.com

Wow. Cheney is the new pit bull on the right (I guess that was his old job as well). Which side do you fall on?

[djm2]

"Cheney made his remarks during a speech at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank."

He was preaching to the choir there. A very safe audience for him.

I had the opportunity a couple of months ago to have dinner with some lawyers who specialize in constitutional law. Politically, they are a mixed group of folks, certainly not uniformly either Democrat or Republican. However, I digress. Without exception this group of legal scholars expressed their professional opinion that the Cheney-Bush-Addington view of the Constitution was "unique" to put it politely. Most thought that Cheney and Addington still had their panties in a bunch from Watergate and Vietnam.

I am not terribly fond of some of the economic steps that Obama is taking, but I think Cheney is a real horse's a$$.

[JSanders]

Originally Posted by djm2

He was preaching to the choir there. A very safe audience for him.

I highly doubt that Dick Cheney would vary the content of his speech very much were he speaking to a liberal think tank like the Tellus Institute.

[akosnitzky]

Wirelessly posted (Its All About the U!)

Its hard to compare a stakeholder to a non stakeholder

[mriff]

Enhanced interrogation = torture. I question the value of intelligence gathered under these conditions. If indeed there have been thousands of lives saved as Cheney argues, then perhaps it is worth it. But I just don't believe it.

[djm2]

I too question the value of intelligence achieved by using torture, and I frankly believe that Cheney is a bald-faced liar for making that statement re: thousands of lives.

However, I will go further. Assuming that thousands of lives were saved, is that worth the wholesale destruction of the principles upon which the country was founded and for which we were (past tense) internationally respected. The United States, and the US military going all the way back to Washington and the founding of the republic, have long been champions of the rights of man and could, as a result, claim the moral high ground. Washington demanded that captured British (or Hessian) soldiers be treated as well as his troops, even when the British were routinely torturing and murdering the insurrectionists. That reputation is shot all to he// now.

[Dawg]

Well considering hes in the know and none of you are. I guess you will never know. I like Cheney I like people who speak their minds and dont worry what others say.

[test54]

Originally Posted by djm2

I too question the value of intelligence achieved by using torture, and I frankly believe that Cheney is a bald-faced liar for making that statement re: thousands of lives.

However, I will go further. Assuming that thousands of lives were saved, is that worth the wholesale destruction of the principles upon which the country was founded and for which we were (past tense) internationally respected. The United States, and the US military going all the way back to Washington and the founding of the republic, have long been champions of the rights of man and could, as a result, claim the moral high ground. Washington demanded that captured British (or Hessian) soldiers be treated as well as his troops, even when the British were routinely torturing and murdering the insurrectionists. That reputation is shot all to he// now.

I agree.

I also think that Cheney never having served should have had no influence on whether people are tortured or not.
To think that he was in the know is partially true but I think he creates his own reality to justify what he wants. He has been caught lying in the past and this is just another for him.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by test54

I agree.

I also think that Cheney never having served should have had no influence on whether people are tortured or not.
To think that he was in the know is partially true but I think he creates his own reality to justify what he wants. He has been caught lying in the past and this is just another for him.

And so has Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy, But hey you dont call for them to shut up.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Well considering hes in the know and none of you are. I guess you will never know. I like Cheney I like people who speak their minds and dont worry what others say.

I don't thinks it's a matter of who's in the know, it's the principle. It's torture any way you look at it. The Bush administration crossed the line in this case.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by Dawg

And so has Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy, But hey you dont call for them to shut up.

I personally, would like them to shut up. Especially Pelosi. Looks like she's gone underground since her recent gaffes.

[JSanders]

Originally Posted by Dawg

Well considering hes in the know

Pfffttt!!!!

Pelosi was in the know.

No, she wasn't.

Yes, she was.

No, she was lied to.

No, she wasn't.

What's she gonna say next?

[test54]

Originally Posted by Dawg

And so has Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy, But hey you dont call for them to shut up.

because they are not outwardly saying that torture is ok and justified. Also they do not have the history that Cheney does when it comes to war profiteering.

if they were saying what he is saying then I would say the same thing.

[djm2]

Wall Street Journal has a nice article this morning on the two competing speeches.

[Dawg]

I dont look at it as torture at all. I think if it saved one US life it was well worth it. I have 10 family members serving in the region. If we have to water board every one of those bastards at Gitmo so be it.

test Kennedy also didnt think he commited murder but he did didnt he.

[djm2]

Yeah, let's see what leads to enhanced security? I'm a grunt on the ground for the other side, and I'm faced with the possibility of capture. If I know/greatly suspect because of all the propaganda that I'll be tortured at Gitmo will I be more or less likely to give it up than if I had heard the US Armed Forces treat detainees with compassion?

[mriff]

Interesting story that ties right in to this thread. Ironic. To me at least.

Torture prompts soul-searching among some Christians - CNN.com

A survey conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life found that white evangelical Christians are more likely to support torture than people who rarely or never attend religious services.

[Dawg]

It worked once before

HOW TO STOP ISLAMIC TERRORISTS...... it worked once in our History...

Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.

Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.

All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.

Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.

They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.

[test54]

because something works in the short term does not make it right. And in actuality is makes things worse in the long run. Note that we prosecuted Japanese in WWII for waterboarding our troops but 50 years later our govt. says its ok. But there are WWII vets here that still hate Japanese because of their brutal treatment of pow's.

[Dawg]

Different times call for different measures. Show me proof where it makes it worse in the long run. Most of the vets i talk to hate the Japanese because they attacked us at Pearl Harbor it has nothing to do with POWs. Not Vietnam Vets are a different story they hate the Vietnamese because of their treatments.