[Berry One]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

You know exactly what I mean. Contracts that go the full term of the agreement. I stand by my assertion of less than half go the full term of the contract.

With such a strong stand you should be able to substantiate your claim. Can you?

Yup. RIMM has roughly 4 million subscribers. While that is very impressive no doubt, Nokia sells that many phones in a week.

Nice change of market. Nokia sells cell phones, Blackberry is PDA. You should know the difference.

Which consumer market has RIMM been sucessful in again?

From Gartner:

Research in Motion, maker of the popular BlackBerry devices, further extended its lead to 25 per cent of the overall PDA market, increasing shipments by 52.6 per cent year over year.
HP ranked second with 16 per cent as shipments decreased by 20.2 per cent, and Palm came in third with a 36.1 per cent decline in shipments.

Actually, the 7100 was not nearly as widely accepted as thought and poor sales of the device was one of the reasons pointed to as to why RIMM missed their subscriber number last quarter.

They missed their own estimate by 10%. Yes, such a big loss. Especially considering they expected 8700 to be part of these sales. Imagine that, they sold 640,000 devices in one quarter instead of 700,000.

They are public company and must publish their results, but can you give us the number of GL CALs sold in the last quarter?

Such a hot seller, they were giving them away all over the place.

Let's see..$1800 at $75 a month for two years contract combined with free blackberry. People are willing to fork $1,800 for free 7100, yes, such a loser device!

Check the top searches at Ebay (consumer enough) in the PDA category:

1. palm
2. pda
3. ipaq
4. pocket pc
5. gps

Again, where has RIMM 'won' the consumer market?

Nice change of subject, again. Yes, if you want to sell something you can rely on Ebay and use it in your sales pitch.

But I can take a bait: so, RIM is not visible on eBay where people sell stuff they don't need any more. RIM may not be there because blackberry users are more loyal to their device than palm users. I wonder, why?

It also supports my knowledge of the fact that blackberry subscribers who got free devices usually stay longer than 2 years on contract and there is more than 50% of them staying on full contract.
But I would not insist on my numbers if you can substantiate yours in opinion you so strongly expressed.

Ahhh, the call of the "Good is just as proprietary BB" fan.

Elegant change of subject, again. You are good. I never said "as proprietary as BB." I said: GoodLink is proprietary, period.
You can't argue with it, but you can change focus to blackberry.

GoodLink runs on industry-standard operating systems.

That does not make it less proprietary. GoodLink is proprietary client-server system running on industry-standard operating systems.

You can pretend that RIMM "took" the consumer market when you don't have it.
Q3 of 2005 Smartphone marketshare:

Apparently, Amazon.com and eBay provide you with different numbers than I am getting. Here are mine:

The mobile version of Windows held on to first place in the operating system market, upping its share by 1.2 percentage points to 49.2 per cent. RIM's software came in second at 25 per cent followed by Palm OS at 14.9 per cent.

If 7% of the ENTIRE smartphone market means that RIMM 'took' that market, ok, then so be it.

More than GoodLink will ever have.

Sigh....things were going so well without any flaming....

Excellent, just excellent final touch. You are really good. Painting yourself as a victim of a flame, so that readers will feel sympathy to you and your sales pitch.

You are very good. Yes, you make small mistakes from time to time, but it is just because you let yourself cornered.

But when you do something brilliant, like posting an article about RIM having patent problem in UK and saying something like "these patent trolls, they are everywhere"- I see the master.

Shall we believe that GoodLink salesperson feels truly sorry for RIM, or is this a hidden way to raise fear, uncertainty and doubt about RIM solution?

[Berry One]

Originally Posted by Hercules

All in all, for small scale deployments I find it nicer to work with Goodlink. Hell, if you standardize the equipment which you're using, Goodlink is just as good as BES in every way. Additionally, Goodlink devices don't HAVE to be on a cellular network to operate -- I can use my Windows mobile device on my WLAN in my home, and my email works the same exact way -- without worrying about the slowness from the cell network. Additionally, and I haven't done this.. for companies that want roaming email access on their floor (ie, helpdesks, IT staff etc), they can buy devices that are NOT phones for Goodlink. They then set up a Wireless LAN and the devices run solely on that -- no cell network needed.

Your review of GoodLink vs BES is good, and I do respect your preferences. I just want to add that RIM also has WiFi device, exactly for companies that want roaming access on their floor. Check BlackBerry 7270: http://www.blackberry.com/products/b...erry7270.shtml


Of course, it runs on the same BES, so you can mix different blackberry devices: GPRS, CDMA, WiFi- all running under the same server-side management software. Just like GoodLink.

[bbmember]

Originally Posted by Berry One

With such a strong stand you should be able to substantiate your claim. Can you?




Nice change of market. Nokia sells cell phones, Blackberry is PDA. You should know the difference.




From Gartner:

Research in Motion, maker of the popular BlackBerry devices, further extended its lead to 25 per cent of the overall PDA market, increasing shipments by 52.6 per cent year over year.
HP ranked second with 16 per cent as shipments decreased by 20.2 per cent, and Palm came in third with a 36.1 per cent decline in shipments.




They missed their own estimate by 10%. Yes, such a big loss. Especially considering they expected 8700 to be part of these sales. Imagine that, they sold 640,000 devices in one quarter instead of 700,000.

They are public company and must publish their results, but can you give us the number of GL CALs sold in the last quarter?



Let's see..$1800 at $75 a month for two years contract combined with free blackberry. People are willing to fork $1,800 for free 7100, yes, such a loser device!



Nice change of subject, again. Yes, if you want to sell something you can rely on Ebay and use it in your sales pitch.

But I can take a bait: so, RIM is not visible on eBay where people sell stuff they don't need any more. RIM may not be there because blackberry users are more loyal to their device than palm users. I wonder, why?

It also supports my knowledge of the fact that blackberry subscribers who got free devices usually stay longer than 2 years on contract and there is more than 50% of them staying on full contract.
But I would not insist on my numbers if you can substantiate yours in opinion you so strongly expressed.




Elegant change of subject, again. You are good. I never said "as proprietary as BB." I said: GoodLink is proprietary, period.
You can't argue with it, but you can change focus to blackberry.




That does not make it less proprietary. GoodLink is proprietary client-server system running on industry-standard operating systems.




Apparently, Amazon.com and eBay provide you with different numbers than I am getting. Here are mine:

The mobile version of Windows held on to first place in the operating system market, upping its share by 1.2 percentage points to 49.2 per cent. RIM's software came in second at 25 per cent followed by Palm OS at 14.9 per cent.




More than GoodLink will ever have.




Excellent, just excellent final touch. You are really good. Painting yourself as a victim of a flame, so that readers will feel sympathy to you and your sales pitch.

You are very good. Yes, you make small mistakes from time to time, but it is just because you let yourself cornered.

But when you do something brilliant, like posting an article about RIM having patent problem in UK and saying something like "these patent trolls, they are everywhere"- I see the master.

Shall we believe that GoodLink salesperson feels truly sorry for RIM, or is this a hidden way to raise fear, uncertainty and doubt about RIM solution?

Well Berry One I have to agree with you 100%. Good_Guy so very nicely chooses to use statistics that suite his point of view. He doesn't have one positive thing to contribute to this forum in my view. Seriously if your product was doing so very well you wouldn't spend half of your time in this forum.

[BES admin]

Originally Posted by bbmember

He doesn't have one positive thing to contribute to this forum in my view. Seriously if your product was doing so very well you wouldn't spend half of your time in this forum.

I disagree with you BBMember... I think Good_Guy has something to offer, and I think he has done a fairly nice job defending his product.

I don't necessarily agree with everything Good_Guy states, and the idea that he uses figures that support GoodLink, is reasonable as well. I have to say that I went looking for articles about RIMM and there is a mix of articles out there on RIM and GOODLINK. I think these products do very well in reviews, coming out as the top two solutions for wireless email in almost every article comparing them. If I were defending RIM I would use reviews and figures that support my perspective too.

The nice thing about facts and figures is you can manipulate them to say whatever you want.

Any way... RIM is STILL better than GOODLINK. Hands down in my opinion.

P.s. I have a treo 650 and it sits on the kitchen shelf, battery worn down, and I never use it. Even without goodlink, I dislike the device and the Palm OS... Always have, always will.

[nb_mitch]

Originally Posted by bbmember

Well Berry One I have to agree with you 100%. Good_Guy so very nicely chooses to use statistics that suite his point of view. He doesn't have one positive thing to contribute to this forum in my view. Seriously if your product was doing so very well you wouldn't spend half of your time in this forum.

Did you ever think this might be his job? I mean, I am no BES admin, I just have a small company, I have never heard of GOOD before I joined this forum, probably like 80% of the potential consumers. So his job maybe to troll the forums for potential clients that are unhappy with their BB solution or on the fence about buying a solution, promote his product (free advertising after all), spread negative press about the competition, promote that needed "backup plan for the coming RIM shutdown", etc. How many private messages or email do you think he may have sent to potential clients from this forum?

In addition to the sales aspect of this forum, "Good" could also use this forum as cheap R&D and to support marketing by better understanding the BB solution's weak points and use that information in their marketing and potential future enhancements to their own solution.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe Good employees are just bored because their sales staff can't come up with an original thought other than bashing RIM, and he therefore has nothing better to do. Just maybe?

[southwestcomm]

Originally Posted by nb_mitch

Did you ever think this might be his job? I mean, I am no BES admin, I just have a small company, I have never heard of GOOD before I joined this forum, probably like 80% of the potential consumers. So his job maybe to troll the forums for potential clients that are unhappy with their BB solution or on the fence about buying a solution, promote his product (free advertising after all), spread negative press about the competition, promote that needed "backup plan for the coming RIM shutdown", etc. How many private messages or email do you think he may have sent to potential clients from this forum?

In addition to the sales aspect of this forum, "Good" could also use this forum as cheap R&D and to support marketing by better understanding the BB solution's weak points and use that information in their marketing and potential future enhancements to their own solution.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe Good employees are just bored because their sales staff can't come up with an original thought other than bashing RIM, and he therefore has nothing better to do. Just maybe?

Good_Guy has admitted he is in "Good" sales - whether directly for the company or not I don't know. I agree with BES Admin that Good_Guy does bring logical discussion to the board. I don't agree with anything he says but atloeast he is professional in his discussion.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by Berry One

With such a strong stand you should be able to substantiate your claim. Can you?

I said it was my opinion.

Nice change of market. Nokia sells cell phones, Blackberry is PDA. You should know the difference.

Not a change of market. Simply pointing out that the largest phone company in the world is coming after RIMM's market. Larger manufacturing facilities, larger distribution network, larger install base.

From Gartner:

Research in Motion, maker of the popular BlackBerry devices, further extended its lead to 25 per cent of the overall PDA market, increasing shipments by 52.6 per cent year over year.
HP ranked second with 16 per cent as shipments decreased by 20.2 per cent, and Palm came in third with a 36.1 per cent decline in shipments.

Selective quoting is convenient. From that same Gartner report:

Gartner defines a PDA as a handheld computer allowing the user to install applications. While it may offer a cellular radio for voice calling, its primary use is around data centric services. This effectively disqualifies that Palm Treo and BlackBerry 7100 smart phones.

So the Treo wasn't part of that survey. Had they been, Palm shipped 470,000 Treos that quarter. Add that to the 478K devices Gartner reports, that places Palm ahead of all the others in the device category and puts them ahead of RIMM in the OS category.

Canalys, another research firm, for the roughly the same time frame as the Gartner study, used the term "Smart Mobile Devices" for their study, which includes handhelds, wireless handhelds, and smartphones. Their order of market share was Nokia (54%) , Palm (8%), RIM (7.5%), Motorola (5.3%), HP (4.2%) and Others (20%).

This actually brings up an interesting question: Is a Blackberry a PDA or a phone?

They are public company and must publish their results, but can you give us the number of GL CALs sold in the last quarter?

Yes, I can. But I won't.

Seriously, I wish I could give the numbers. I can say we have grown from roughly 3,500 enterprises using GoodLink at the beginning of this year to almost 8,000 now. Nowhere near the over 40,000 that RIMM has. Nor do we have the subscriber base that RIMM has. I have never said RIMM wasn't the market leader. All I am saying is that for almost it's entire existence, RIMM has not had any competition. Their growth, while still impressive, is slowing. Not my opinion, stated here:

Third place RIM's growth slowed again, down to 58 percent from 84 percent in the second quarter and 100 percent in Q1. "Despite pioneering the market for enterprise push email solutions and doing a great job of signing up new operators in many countries the company is coming under increasing pressure from a number of hardware and software vendors, all chasing this lucrative segment"

http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS8815920044.html

Let's see..$1800 at $75 a month for two years contract combined with free blackberry. People are willing to fork $1,800 for free 7100, yes, such a loser device!

Which goes to my first point about people cancelling the service, if they read the small print and after getting their first bill for $80. This argument is strictly your opinion vs mine as neither of us can provide quantitative data to back up the statements. One of those agree to disagree kind of things.

Nice change of subject, again. Yes, if you want to sell something you can rely on Ebay and use it in your sales pitch.

How is it a change of subject? You stated that RIMM owned the consumer space. I provided data from that space that countered that argument. As for using eBay in a sales pitch, since we don't target the consumer space, no need to quote eBay or Amazon.

But I can take a bait: so, RIM is not visible on eBay where people sell stuff they don't need any more. RIM may not be there because blackberry users are more loyal to their device than palm users. I wonder, why?

No, there is plenty of RIM on eBay. Roughly the same number of auctions with Blackberry in the title as with Treo in the title.

It also supports my knowledge of the fact that blackberry subscribers who got free devices usually stay longer than 2 years on contract and there is more than 50% of them staying on full contract.
But I would not insist on my numbers if you can substantiate yours in opinion you so strongly expressed.

I never called mine facts, but you call yours "knowledge". Produce something to counter my statement and I will gladly back down from it.

Elegant change of subject, again. You are good. I never said "as proprietary as BB." I said: GoodLink is proprietary, period.
You can't argue with it, but you can change focus to blackberry.

That does not make it less proprietary. GoodLink is proprietary client-server system running on industry-standard operating systems.

Elegant selective quoting again. I said the entire BB solution is propietary because all three pieces come from the same manufacturer and none of the three pieces from that single manufacturer can run without the other two. The fact that GoodLink runs on industry-standard operating systems, and BB does not, most definitely makes is less proprietary.

Apparently, Amazon.com and eBay provide you with different numbers than I am getting. Here are mine:

The mobile version of Windows held on to first place in the operating system market, upping its share by 1.2 percentage points to 49.2 per cent. RIM's software came in second at 25 per cent followed by Palm OS at 14.9 per cent.

Same skewed Gartner report that didn't count the Treo.

More than GoodLink will ever have.

Since we don't sell hardware, you are 100% right.

Excellent, just excellent final touch. You are really good. Painting yourself as a victim of a flame, so that readers will feel sympathy to you and your sales pitch.

Being that you took a quote from a different post than the one you were replying to, how would expect me to take it? This thread has been wonderfully free of flames, which typically they take and I do not want to see it go that way. If that was not your intention, my apologies for accusing you of such.

You are very good. Yes, you make small mistakes from time to time, but it is just because you let yourself cornered.

Thank you, but I don't see where I have been cornered.

But when you do something brilliant, like posting an article about RIM having patent problem in UK and saying something like "these patent trolls, they are everywhere"- I see the master.

Shall we believe that GoodLink salesperson feels truly sorry for RIM, or is this a hidden way to raise fear, uncertainty and doubt about RIM solution?

Now I am the master. Wow. I am flattered.

I never said I feel sorry for RIMM. I did say that patent trolls are everywhere and RIMM is feeling their brunt. Has nothing to do with FUD. As evidenced by their numbers yesterday, the effect, up to this point, has been minimal. Yes, growth has slowed from quarter to quarter, but I think that had more to do with competition being turned up, and yes, the late release of the 8700 had some effect than with NTP. I have always said, and always told my customers, that I don't think the BB network will be shut down, so how would I use it as FUD if I don't think it is going to happen?

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by bbmember

Well Berry One I have to agree with you 100%. Good_Guy so very nicely chooses to use statistics that suite his point of view. He doesn't have one positive thing to contribute to this forum in my view. Seriously if your product was doing so very well you wouldn't spend half of your time in this forum.

Please show me my selective statistics.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by nb_mitch

Did you ever think this might be his job? I mean, I am no BES admin, I just have a small company, I have never heard of GOOD before I joined this forum, probably like 80% of the potential consumers. So his job maybe to troll the forums for potential clients that are unhappy with their BB solution or on the fence about buying a solution, promote his product (free advertising after all), spread negative press about the competition, promote that needed "backup plan for the coming RIM shutdown", etc. How many private messages or email do you think he may have sent to potential clients from this forum?

In addition to the sales aspect of this forum, "Good" could also use this forum as cheap R&D and to support marketing by better understanding the BB solution's weak points and use that information in their marketing and potential future enhancements to their own solution.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe Good employees are just bored because their sales staff can't come up with an original thought other than bashing RIM, and he therefore has nothing better to do. Just maybe?

Let's address a couple of things:

1) Trolling for customers. I have never once posted my contact information, my name, my email address. I have never said GoodLink was a back-up plan for Blackberry. I have started one single thread on this forum and that was an article about a lawsuit in Britain. I have never once posted in a thread where a BB user is complaining about something they can't do with their device that maybe GoodLink can do. I have never said "GoodLink can do that, PM me".

2) I am sure Mark can check PM usage, but I can say that I have sent maybe a total of 5 or 6 PM's and most those were to Mark back in April. I have received 1, count 'em, 1, PM from users:

"Hey, I might consider using Good as the backup service in case something happens to Blackberry in the future. Can you send me more information about Good? How is it better than blackberry in full details if possible? I have looked at good website (www.good.com) for a bit information, but I havent found the in depth product comparsion between Good and Blackberry."

I have not received single email from a user here. I have not sent a single email to someone who is 'on the fence' or looking for an alternative solution. Don't you think if I was spamming users here, it would have come out by now?

3) Cheap R&D. From a personal perspective, absolutely. It is imperative that I know as much about comparative differences in our competitions products as possible. Even more, however, I need to know what customers are looking for in their solution, what they like and dislike. Learning from the market leader and their customers makes sense. If you think that RIMM sales and marketing people are not looking at treocentral and pdaphonehome, you are naive. I have nothing to do with development or marketing, by the way.

4) I don't consider what I post 'bashing' RIMM. I try to counter arguments against it. Obviously, being that this a BB forum, and BB users are extremely loyal to their product and I wouldn't expect them to be any other way, so it may seem as bashing when I bring up points that are not flattering to the solution. I realize that my mere presence here opens me up to flaming, but I can handle that. However, I thoroughly enjoy the discourse (in most cases). BB users tend to be fairly technical and that is one of my favorite things about this industry. I guess I am a closet gear-head at heart.

If by me posting here, a majority of readers feel I am not adding to the discussions in which I participate, then I will leave and have Mark delete my account. I am not trying to be a martyr, but I truly respect BBF and the users and the last thing I want to do is to somehow tarnish what people come here for. Trust me when I tell you, I have gained absolutely nothing, from a tangible sales perspective, by being here. I have learned a great deal about BB but even more, I have learned a great deal about the perception in the marketplace about GoodLink.

[bbmember]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Please show me my selective statistics.

1. You say there are about 40,000 BES installations and 8,000 Goodlink installations. First of all, RIM doesn't give out the number of BES installs anymore. This is a very old stat and you are using it to show as if Goodlink was gaining a larger market share. You guys are so scared to give out the number of users since that is so microscopic and it will actually represent the real truth.

2. You use some stats that says Nokia is the leader and Palm is above RIM in smartphones. I can also show many stats that show RIM as the leader. But one important point. You really consider something a smartphone when it has a true and complete data plan. Tell me how many of those Nokia and Palm phones/PDAs have that. You are doing this just to say Goodlink has more potential users than RIM. But the real truth if you ask any carrier, BB is the most widely sold device with a data connection enabled.

3. This is my favorite one. You always use the 49.99$ data plan from sprint to do all the calculation to show Goodlink is cheaper. First of all BB rates from sprint are the most expensive and I think Treo data plan for sprint is the cheapest of all carriers. Also you can ask most of the IT guys here which is the cheaper solution (I really mean how much they paid for devices + server) and I can bet that Goodlink is far more expensive that BES.

4. Previous posts I see you post unfavorable rulings of RIM in the NTP case and calculate money that RIM will have to pay based on the rates quoted in some press statements by NTP lawyers. Your only intention is to scare people from using BES and then try to make then adopt Goodlink. This according to me is very very cheap and disgusting.

5. Good_Guy has started one thread so far. No points for guessing what it would be on. It is about RIM being sued in Britian. Berry One I respect you even though we disagree on this one. But I really don't see this as a positive contribution to this forum.

Frankly I can go on and on. But I work for a company whose products actually get sold and I don't have to spend my time in forums of competitors trying to make use some stupid stats to show that our products are doing well.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by bbmember

1. You say there are about 40,000 BES installations and 8,000 Goodlink installations. First of all, RIM doesn't give out the number of BES installs anymore. This is a very old stat and you are using it to show as if Goodlink was gaining a larger market share. You guys are so scared to give out the number of users since that is so microscopic and it will actually represent the real truth.

I am basing that number from a March 28th, 2005 article in Forbes:

Corporate customers have installed some 40,000 BlackBerry servers

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0328/052_2.html

If it is old, blame Forbes, not me. As for us not giving subscriber numbers, I really wish we would so as to counter statements like yours. Obviously, not my decision to make.

2. You use some stats that says Nokia is the leader and Palm is above RIM in smartphones. I can also show many stats that show RIM as the leader. But one important point. You really consider something a smartphone when it has a true and complete data plan. Tell me how many of those Nokia and Palm phones/PDAs have that. You are doing this just to say Goodlink has more potential users than RIM. But the real truth if you ask any carrier, BB is the most widely sold device with a data connection enabled.

Number don't lie. I gave you the reference (third party) that says Nokia and Palm are above RIMM in converged device sales, ie, data and voice. You say you can show me numbers that prove otherwise. Please do. Palm sold 602,000 Treos last quarter, RIMM added 645,000 new subscribers last month (again, assuming each subscriber was a new device sale). The delta between Treo sales and BB sales is getting smaller with each quarter. As for having a larger addressable market than RIMM, there are two arguments to that. The fact that we currently only support Exchange and RIMM supports Exchange, Notes and Groupwise counters that we support more operating systems. That we support more operating systems on more devices than RIMM can counter that. Throw BB Connect in the mix and the dynamics change. How they change remains to be seen in the acceptance rate of BB Connect.

As for the number of Treos that have data enabled, my guess would be a huge majority of them, as without data enabled, it is an expensive PDA. BTW, I work with carriers, Sprint in particular, and I can tell you that the Treo far outsells Blackberry in corporate accounts with them. Now, being fair, Sprint has only been selling the BB for a little over a year and they have only started getting newer devices. Combined with the BB powerhouse Nextel, I am sure their BB sales will increase a bit. However, Sprint reps I have talked to said the biggest issue they had in selling the Treo was that it couldn't do push email. Now that they sell GoodLink, that is no longer the case.

3. Previous posts I see you post unfavorable rulings of RIM in the NTP case and calculate money that RIM will have to pay based on the rates quoted in some press statements by NTP lawyers. Your only intention is to scare people from using BES and then try to make then adopt Goodlink. This according to me is very very cheap and disgusting.

Show me where I posted unfavorable rulings in the NTP case. You can't. There is one post where I calculated the royalty rate (5.7%) which was published widely. The initial finding was 8.55% in the original court case.

To me what is cheap and disgusting is you trying to smear me with baseless accusations.

Frankly I can go on and on. But I actually work for a company whose products actually get sold and I don't have to spend my time in forums of competitors trying to make use some stupid stats to show that our products are doing well.

Not making up stats. Whether you choose to believe them or not is your decision.

EDIT:

Ah, you added a couple of things:

This is my favorite one. You always use the 49.99$ data plan from sprint to do all the calculation to show Goodlink is cheaper. First of all BB rates from sprint are the most expensive and I think Treo data plan for sprint is the cheapest of all carriers. Also you can ask most of the IT guys here which is the cheaper solution (I really mean how much they paid for devices + server) and I can bet that Goodlink is far more expensive that BES

Actually, Sprint has the least expensive BB plan of the three majors, so I actually help the BB cause using Sprint. The Treo dataplan (with GoodLink) is $40 on Sprint. Cheapest plans on the other carriers:

Cingular: $49.99 (http://www.cingular.com/midtolarge/data_connect), Verizon: $49.99 (http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/s...ewPlanOverview)
T-Mobile: $39.98 (http://www.t-mobile.com/plans/Default.asp?tab=national)

I gave a cost comparison of BES vs GoodLink for server and licenses. Devices, agreed, tend to be less expensive for BB. Carrier subsidy and RIMM based promotions help that. However, even with that, as I said, RIMM only sold 45K more devices last quarter than Palm even WITH the price difference.

5. Good_Guy has started one thread so far. No points for guessing what it would be on. It is about RIM being sued in Britian. Berry One I respect you even though we disagree on this one. But I really don't see this as a positive contribution to this forum.

I bet if I was pro-Blackberry you would being that there have been numerous threads started that talked about negative happenings with RIMM in the "Blackberry in the News" forum. But because I happen to post news AND I am the 'enemy', it isn't a positive contribution. OK, fair enough.

[Good_Guy]

Unfortunately, this thread has taken a turn I was hoping it wouldn't. I am afraid that it will continue down this path and lose any value it may have had. I will excuse myself from posting anything further. Corey, southwestcomm, BES Admin, and the others who contributed, I enjoyed it and learned alot and hope that I was able to provide a little bit of clarity as well regarding GoodLink.

Have a great holiday season and a happy new year!

[bbmember]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

I am basing that number from a March 28th, 2005 article in Forbes:

Corporate customers have installed some 40,000 BlackBerry servers

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0328/052_2.html

If it is old, blame Forbes, not me. As for us not giving subscriber numbers, I really wish we would so as to counter statements like yours. Obviously, not my decision to make.



Number don't lie. I gave you the reference (third party) that says Nokia and Palm are above RIMM in converged device sales, ie, data and voice. You say you can show me numbers that prove otherwise. Please do. Palm sold 602,000 Treos last quarter, RIMM added 645,000 new subscribers last month (again, assuming each subscriber was a new device sale). The delta between Treo sales and BB sales is getting smaller with each quarter. As for having a larger addressable market than RIMM, there are two arguments to that. The fact that we currently only support Exchange and RIMM supports Exchange, Notes and Groupwise counters that we support more operating systems. That we support more operating systems on more devices than RIMM can counter that. Throw BB Connect in the mix and the dynamics change. How they change remains to be seen in the acceptance rate of BB Connect.

As for the number of Treos that have data enabled, my guess would be a huge majority of them, as without data enabled, it is an expensive PDA. BTW, I work with carriers, Sprint in particular, and I can tell you that the Treo far outsells Blackberry in corporate accounts with them. Now, being fair, Sprint has only been selling the BB for a little over a year and they have only started getting newer devices. Combined with the BB powerhouse Nextel, I am sure their BB sales will increase a bit. However, Sprint reps I have talked to said the biggest issue they had in selling the Treo was that it couldn't do push email. Now that they sell GoodLink, that is no longer the case.



Show me where I posted unfavorable rulings in the NTP case. You can't. There is one post where I calculated the royalty rate (5.7%) which was published widely. The initial finding was 8.55% in the original court case.

To me what is cheap and disgusting is you trying to smear me with baseless accusations.


Not making up stats. Whether you choose to believe them or not is your decision.

EDIT:

Ah, you added a couple of things:



Actually, Sprint has the least expensive BB plan of the three majors, so I actually help the BB cause using Sprint. The Treo dataplan (with GoodLink) is $40 on Sprint.

I gave a cost comparison of BES vs GoodLink for server and licenses. Devices, agreed, tend to be less expensive for BB. Carrier subsidy and RIMM based promotions help that. However, even with that, as I said, RIMM only sold 45K more devices last quarter than Palm even WITH the price difference.



I bet if I was pro-Blackberry you would being that there have been numerous threads started that talked about negative happenings with RIMM in the "Blackberry in the News" forum. But because I happen to post news AND I am the 'enemy', it isn't a positive contribution. OK, fair enough.

- First of all RIM doesn't post the number of BES installs anymore. I think they stopped it it more than a year back. So that figure is totally incorrect. Again using an incorrect stat (which I believe willingly) trying to make people believe that RIM is loosing significant ground to Goodlink.

- "Palm sold 602,000 Treos last quarter, RIMM added 645,000 new subscribers last month" - Again this is the partial truths (using total devices in one case and subscribers in another case). RIMM shipped about 1.1 million devices this quater. This is far more than Palm Treo. This is the truth.

- I think you need to check the data plans for other carriers. Sprint is the most expensive data plan for BB. Cingular, Nextel, Verizon, and T-Mobile are all less. Again lies.

- Check out post "Blackberry Shutdown Planning" #13. Your own post. I didn't make it up.

Anyways I am not willing to waste my time anymore arguing about your lies. I certainly have better things to do.

[southwestcomm]

Originally Posted by bbmember

- First of all RIM doesn't post the number of BES installs anymore. I think they stopped it it more than a year back. So that figure is totally incorrect. Again using an incorrect stat (which I believe willingly) trying to make people believe that RIM is loosing significant ground to Goodlink.

- "Palm sold 602,000 Treos last quarter, RIMM added 645,000 new subscribers last month" - Again this is the partial truths (using total devices in one case and subscribers in another case). RIMM shipped about 1.1 million devices this quater. This is far more than Palm Treo. This is the truth.

- I think you need to check the data plans for other carriers. Sprint is the most expensive data plan for BB. Cingular, Nextel, Verizon, and T-Mobile are all less. Again lies.

- Check out post "Blackberry Shutdown Planning" #13. Your own post. I didn't make it up.

Anyways I am not willing to waste my time anymore arguing about your lies. I certainly have better things to do.

bbmember-

Except for TMobile all carriers charge $44.99 for unlimited BB data and $34.99 for a limited MB package. TMo, being the whores they are, charges for data depending on whether you are a BES or BIS user - which is odd.

While you have every right to disagree with Good_Guy calling him a "liar" and other comments are unnecessary. I disagree with him as well, but share my views and thoughts without attacking him. I, as others, respect his views and you should as well.

[bbmember]

Originally Posted by nb_mitch

Did you ever think this might be his job? I mean, I am no BES admin, I just have a small company, I have never heard of GOOD before I joined this forum, probably like 80% of the potential consumers. So his job maybe to troll the forums for potential clients that are unhappy with their BB solution or on the fence about buying a solution, promote his product (free advertising after all), spread negative press about the competition, promote that needed "backup plan for the coming RIM shutdown", etc. How many private messages or email do you think he may have sent to potential clients from this forum?

In addition to the sales aspect of this forum, "Good" could also use this forum as cheap R&D and to support marketing by better understanding the BB solution's weak points and use that information in their marketing and potential future enhancements to their own solution.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe Good employees are just bored because their sales staff can't come up with an original thought other than bashing RIM, and he therefore has nothing better to do. Just maybe?

This is exactly my point. He is here just to promote Goodlink. He is smart enough to do it in this implicit way rather than in a explicit manner because in this way he can't be banned. Plain and simple.

[Good_Guy]

Can't stay away. Had to check the smear campaign one more time.

Originally Posted by bbmember

- First of all RIM doesn't post the number of BES installs anymore. I think they stopped it it more than a year back. So that figure is totally incorrect. Again using an incorrect stat (which I believe willingly) trying to make people believe that RIM is loosing significant ground to Goodlink.

Again, it is not me, it is Forbes. I gave you the link. From March of this year.

- "Palm sold 602,000 Treos last quarter, RIMM added 645,000 new subscribers last month" - Again this is the partial truths (using total devices in one case and subscribers in another case). RIMM shipped about 1.1 million devices this quater. This is far more than Palm Treo. This is the truth.

I apologize. I was looking at subscribers and assumed that was devices as well. Should have read the entire release. So I guess a better way of putting it would be 645,000 new devices? If they shipped 1.1 million devices, are the other 455,000 replacements/upgrades? I would assume so. Some might say channel stuffing, but I don't think that is the case.

- I think you need to check the data plans for other carriers. Sprint is the most expensive data plan for BB. Cingular, Nextel, Verizon, and T-Mobile are all less. Again lies.

See my edit

- Check out post "Blackberry Shutdown Planning" #13. Your own post. I didn't make it up.

I post an article from Bloomberg in a thread that is about the NTP case/possible shutdown and that isn't contributing to the forum. OK, if you say so.

[bbmember]

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

bbmember-

Except for TMobile all carriers charge $44.99 for unlimited BB data and $34.99 for a limited MB package. TMo, being the whores they are, charges for data depending on whether you are a BES or BIS user - which is odd.

While you have every right to disagree with Good_Guy calling him a "liar" and other comments are unnecessary. I disagree with him as well, but share my views and thoughts without attacking him. I, as others, respect his views and you should as well.

Still sprint plan is the most expensive. So using that is not fair at all and doesn't present the correct picture. And tell me is Goodlink cheaper than BES. Try calling your carrier sales REP and check it out yourself. More over carriers offer greater discount for BES.

But my point is that he is using incorrect stats trying to promote his product. Also I think for him to use NTP case to scare people is quite disgusting. Above all he has started 1 thread and that too about a British company suing RIM. All these tatics are just plain out right cheap.

All he is trying to do is trying to implicitly promote his product. Tell me something why aren't you seeing Intellisync, Visto, Microsoft etc people talking about their product in this forum. Just good company people. First we had ace who got banned and correctly so and now you have Good_Guy. Really speaks a lot about the company.

[Berry One]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

I said it was my opinion.

If this is unsubstantiated opinion that you can not support with any facts or references, can we call it a mistake?

Seriously, I wish I could give the numbers. I can say we have grown from roughly 3,500 enterprises using GoodLink at the beginning of this year to almost 8,000 now.

This is impressive, I never disputed that. Almost as impressive as RIM. As you quoted, they got 100% growth in Q1. In Q1 alone RIM did better in terms of relative growth than GL in almost a year.

All I am saying is that for almost it's entire existence, RIMM has not had any competition. Their growth, while still impressive, is slowing. Not my opinion, stated here: [i]Third place RIM's growth slowed again, down to 58 percent from 84 percent in the second quarter and 100 percent in Q1. [/]

Gosh, 58% growth in one quarter and you make it look like a disaster. Many companies would kill for such growth.

By the way, it is relative growth. Lets play with absolute numbers. Suppose, RIM had subscriber base of only 100 blackberries before this year.

Q1: 100% growth. RIM sold 100 blackberries in Q1, doubled its subscriber base.
Q2: 84% growth. RIM sold 200*.84=168 blackberries in Q2.
Q3: 58% growth. RIM sold 386*.58=224 blackberries in Q3.

Awful, just awful times for RIM. The growth is slowing!

The fact that GoodLink runs on industry-standard operating systems, and BB does not, most definitely makes is less proprietary.

Most definitely not.

[gdpmumin]

Not to hash out an old topic, but i just swicthed providers from Nextel (BB 7100i) to Verizon. I decided to try out a Treo 700w so I can start carrying only one device. Afterall, I can switch it out for a BB 7130e within 15 days if necessary. I have to say my interaction with GoodLink was absolutely horrible. Had it for 12 hours and cancelled the service. You have to use GoodLink's propietary software, which is actually less functional than the standard Windows apps. No filtering on categories, not even the minimal filtering available in the stock apps. And there's no interaction with the Outlook database on the unit, so using thrid party apps (like PocketInformant) doesn't solve the issue.

E-mail was okay, but again GoodLink is a downloaded app. If it somehow gets turned off, or you have to reset your device and forget to start the software, you get no Exchange functionality. I know you can set it to start on reset, but the Treo is short on memory as it is. It's just not a viable option.

Looks like I may be returning to the BB (which will require me to carry two devices again). But I wish they would add categories to the calendar!!

[aau007]

Your points are really argumentative. If GoodLink is a proprietary software, what makes you think Blackberry is open source?

There is a fundamental difference between BlackBerry and GoodLink. BlackBerry is only push email and GoodLink is mailbox synchronization with push email. I believe different companies go with either solutions for various reasons but rarely because of being proprietary.

Blackberry is an end to end solution, you have to have BES on one end and a BB device on the other. GoodLink requires a GL server on one end but uses a software that can be loaded on various devices on the other end. Therefore, they are going to have some functional/operational differences.

I am not trying to convince you one way or the other. You should go with what's you believe is best for you.