[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by test54

Do you really think embryos feel pain? Because I'm sure Mengele's patients did.

I'm sure they did not feel pain, but the presence or absence of the sensation of pain is not my litmus test for whether a medical procedure is ethical or not. In both cases, lives were deliberately destroyed in order to make some sort of scientific discovery.

I am all for stem cell research, but I am against the destruction of embryos in order to accomplish it. In the last few years, stem cells have been discovered in umbilical cords and hair follicles, and I'm sure more will be discovered elsewhere on the human body.

We don't need to take the steps Obama is taking in order to move forward.

[test54]

Originally Posted by kathrynhr

We don't need to take the steps Obama is taking in order to move forward.

Well thats a fundamental difference, no issue there. But I do think science needs to be a priority as it has suffered for years.

And I think its insulting to those who might be connected to torture victims to say that stem cell embryos are some how comparable to their loved ones who might have been tortured to death for merely being different.

[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by test54

And I think its insulting to those who might be connected to torture victims to say that stem cell embryos are some how comparable to their loved ones who might have been tortured to death for merely being different.

I don't mean to suggest it wasn't horrific. Not in the slightest. I mean to suggest that embryonic stem cell research is horrific also.

[test54]

I guess, but to me there is no comparison. One is incapable of feeling pain and has been willingly been donated for research. The other has been imprisoned for no reason and is subjected to unthinkable things until their death.

[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by test54

One is incapable of feeling pain and has been willingly been donated for research.

"Willingly donated" by someone else and without their own consent... which they are, of course, incapable of giving.

How convenient for everyone else.

I understand your position, I believe, but I don't agree with it.

[test54]

how does something incapable of thought or feeling possibly offer consent?
To me this is not a life issue as embryos are not people. To me the Georgia legislation mention in this thread is a cheap tactic to block the research. I do not think embryos should be considered people and this example of comparing Mengele's victims to embryos demonstrates the difference.

[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by test54

To me this is not a life issue as embryos are not people.

This is our point of difference, then. To me, they are human beings and they are alive.

[test54]

I know, that is the difference.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by test54

how does something incapable of thought or feeling possibly offer consent?
To me this is not a life issue as embryos are not people. To me the Georgia legislation mention in this thread is a cheap tactic to block the research. I do not think embryos should be considered people and this example of comparing Mengele's victims to embryos demonstrates the difference.

OK thats your interpretation, to many more they are in fact human beings.

You say they arent we say they are. You believe in evolution I do not. SO we will never agree on anything science related.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by kathrynhr

I'm not. I would also reject them. I see very little difference in the "advances" resulting from taking stem cells from viable embryos, and the "advances" resulting from the research that Mengele did at Auschwitz.

It does matter how knowledge, and how technology, are derived.

Wow kathryn. I have to ask, do you also think the scientists that are conducting this research are akin to a bunch of Mengeles? You compare the reseach that is being conducted. Do you also compare the people doing the research?

The embryos that are being used in this research are, unfortunately, being discarded anyway. I think that's a terrible thing to do. But if they are being destroyed, why shouldn't we make an attempt to learn more about treating some very devastating diseases?

[mriff]

Originally Posted by Dawg

SO we will never agree on anything science related.

I think there are many areas of science you both would agree on. The exception is the Life Sciences. On that? You and test (and me) are polar opposites.

[djm2]

With all due respect Mriff, I suspect that you and the Dawg also disagree on basic process issues regarding how knowledge is created -- and you're polar on that as well.

[mriff]

Lol. Ok, you got me. I suspect you're right.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by djm2

With all due respect Mriff, I suspect that you and the Dawg also disagree on basic process issues regarding how knowledge is created -- and you're polar on that as well.

I am sure we disagree on just about everything after reading his posts here and on other forums.

[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by mriff

Wow kathryn. I have to ask, do you also think the scientists that are conducting this research are akin to a bunch of Mengeles? You compare the reseach that is being conducted. Do you also compare the people doing the research?

Warning: faith-based opinion to follow.

I doubt it. I doubt it will be judged that they are doing wrong, by God or by man, because by and large they don't have a basis for seeing it that way. And I am not permitted to judge/guess what someone else's internal motivations are. ("Judge not, lest ye be judged.") No, I don't see the researchers as willfully evil. I see them as not recognizing that what they are doing is not God's will.

If I were conducting such research, it would be very wrong. Because I accept God's word and live my life as his servant, I will be held to a different standard by everyone. And justly so.

Originally Posted by mriff

The embryos that are being used in this research are, unfortunately, being discarded anyway. I think that's a terrible thing to do.

Yes, discarding is just as bad as "researching" to me.

Originally Posted by mriff

But if they are being destroyed, why shouldn't we make an attempt to learn more about treating some very devastating diseases?

I'm coming at this from a wildly different angle. To me, "spare" embryos should not exist in the first place. If people are having fertility troubles, generating just enough embryos to implant is one thing... making extras just in case is quite another. (I recognize this is, in part, a financial issue.)

I believe the most responsible thing to do, morally and ecologically, if one cannot conceive naturally is adopt. But that's just me.

[mriff]

Ok Kathryn. Another very thoughful answer from you. I agree with what you have written and understand it. I just see so much good coming from this research. So much suffering can be alleviated or even eliminated. There are some very horrific genetic diseases that can be cured and/or prevented if this research is successful. And using similar logic (that you may or may not agree with), perhaps God is allowing/guiding this research with embryos that would be discarded to do good for humanity rather than letting the opportunity slip away.