[sandman02002002]

eveybody is forgetting. the stable of the RIM OS. i have use windos Pocket PC. it like to frizz up. Plam does even less. plam had to keep adding to the os to make it look cool.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by sandman02002002

eveybody is forgetting. the stable of the RIM OS. i have use windos Pocket PC. it like to frizz up. Plam does even less. plam had to keep adding to the os to make it look cool.

On this point, no one can argue. I originally switched from a Treo700w and one of the reasons I did it was to get away from WM. It's also why if I'm not using a BlackBerry, an iPhone seems like the only alternative.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

On this point, no one can argue. I originally switched from a Treo700w and one of the reasons I did it was to get away from WM. It's also why if I'm not using a BlackBerry, an iPhone seems like the only alternative.

Linux would be a great alternative. Unfortunately, M$ has such a strong strangle hold on the industry (especially in the US), that many companies won't even consider it. I think that is what is making BB and the iphone so attractive to users, they are different and better then any device running Win Mobile. People want choice, M$ products are all about the opposite.

Sorry for the anti M$ rant. They have done more to damage personal computing then any other company in history.

[cdd543]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

On this point, no one can argue. I originally switched from a Treo700w and one of the reasons I did it was to get away from WM. It's also why if I'm not using a BlackBerry, an iPhone seems like the only alternative.

I gave the iphone a solid month of testing and while the interface is amazing the email is lacking in functionality. This has nothing to do with push either. I have two pop3 email(one is built in gmail) accounts and they are both plagued with the inability to download messages. You get lots of no content or message not downloaded from server errors. I have gone back to the curve while the iphone is gathering dust. I wouldn't bother until a major firmware revision is released fixing this issue. You would think they would have done that with their first patch, but they didn't.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by ArgonNJ

Linux would be a great alternative. Unfortunately, M$ has such a strong strangle hold on the industry (especially in the US), that many companies won't even consider it. I think that is what is making BB and the iphone so attractive to users, they are different and better then any device running Win Mobile. People want choice, M$ products are all about he opposite.

Sorry for the anti M$ rant. They have done more to damage personal computing then any other company in history.

You hit the nail on the head. I don't care how wonderful any new smartphones are if they're employing WM. That's why I bristle at the notion that I'm just looking for the "coolest and newest" all because I mention an iPhone.

And you're right about MS. I would have switched over to Macs for my business by now, but unfortunately the whole world runs on PC's. I will be making the switch the next time I'm in the market for a non-business machine.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by cdd543

I gave the iphone a solid month of testing and while the interface is amazing the email is lacking in functionality. This has nothing to do with push either. I have two pop3 email(one is built in gmail) accounts and they are both plagued with the inability to download messages. You get lots of no content or message not downloaded from server errors. I have gone back to the curve while the iphone is gathering dust. I wouldn't bother until a major firmware revision is released fixing this issue. You would think they would have done that with their first patch, but they didn't.

I've heard mixed things about their email, but as I've stated before, email isn't of central concern to me in my day to day, business or personal.

But yes, if I dip my toe in the iPhone waters, I'm going to wait for some software patches. As I said before, I do not consider the phone to be the answer to all of my issues.

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

You're also incredibly narrow minded. These "gizmos" you're referring to are actually used for day to day business/personal tasks. Sorry, but the bulk of folks complaining about lack of WiFi and GPS aren't "noobs" who came to the party late. They're folks, just like me, who have found that these items can enhance productivity and make life somewhat easier while on the run.

It's not narrowmindedness. I know that popularity can sometimes ruin a product, particularly if chasing new market share leads RIM away from what makes the blackberry what it is. It is optimized do several things very, very well, push email being one. I just don't see how the blackberry can stay that way -- purpose built to do a few things very well and very reliable -- if RIM is trying to chase and keep up with consumers who want everything on their blackberry and whose tastes change moment to moment.

If you think I'm arguing about the features, you miss my point.

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

I don't care about the "coolness" factor, and if I did I wouldn't own a smartphone anyway. I'd go get one of those stupid RAZR-life flips that force people to listen to obnoxious pop muzak whenever they call you. I'm a self-employed consultant who I can assure you uses this device to enable me to more efficiently help run my business. I'm not some 16 year old teenage girl looking for something that comes in pink and glows in the dark.

Sorry I hit a nerve. By the way, Blackberryer, you've mentioned you are a self-employed consultant. Congratulations.

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

And yes, it is good for business that RIM offers a better mouse trap, at least where consumers are concerned. If the company wants to tap the consumer market, how can you even suggest that offering items that consumers want on their phone somehow damages the allure of the device? You've got to be joking. You do understand how the free market works, right? I can completely see where offering a top notch communications device that combines other readily available smartphone features would be SOOO destructive to the proud BlackBerry tradition. Oh, the horror!

I've made my point, or at least tried to make it, again, above. But the sarcastic insult is moronic. Aren't there enough examples where companies have followed their consumers off a cliff?

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

It's not narrowmindedness. I know that popularity can sometimes ruin a product, particularly if chasing new market share leads RIM away from what makes the blackberry what it is. It is optimized do several things very, very well, push email being one. I just don't see how the blackberry can stay that way -- purpose built to do a few things very well and very reliable -- if RIM is trying to chase and keep up with consumers who want everything on their blackberry and whose tastes change moment to moment.

Yes, well, that's what happened when you try to corral the consumer market as RIM wants to do. It's called "progress", and your belief that addition of features means subtraction of standbys (at least in terms of quality) is pretty much groundless considering the company's history.

Originally Posted by aiharkness

If you think I'm arguing about the features, you miss my point.

I think you're arguing that all the damn teenagers should get off your BlackBerry lawn because they're mucking up the grass.

Originally Posted by aiharkness

Sorry I hit a nerve. By the way, Blackberryer, you've mentioned you are a self-employed consultant. Congratulations.

I don't think you hit a nerve, I think you made a really dumb point.

Originally Posted by aiharkness

I've made my point, or at least tried to make it, again, above. But the sarcastic insult is moronic. Aren't there enough examples where companies have followed their consumers off a cliff?

What's moronic is your assumption that BlackBerry won't apply the same standards to new features that they have to old standbys. You could be right, but again the company's history doesn't suggest you are.

I get your point. It goes like this: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Hopefully, RIM is a little more forward thinking.

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

... What's moronic is your assumption that BlackBerry won't apply the same standards to new features that they have to old standbys. You could be right, but again the company's history doesn't suggest you are.

I get your point. It goes like this: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Hopefully, RIM is a little more forward thinking.

And maybe that's the answer to your question about why RIM is doing what they are doing. They are taking the time to get it right. Will you wait? Will RIM rush because they know you will not wait? (You here is the generic you, the consumer.)

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

And maybe that's the answer to your question about why RIM is doing what they are doing. They are taking the time to get it right. Will you wait? Will RIM rush because they know you will not wait? (You here is the generic you, the consumer.)

Perhaps I will. But the thing is, unlike you, I don't have a rooting interest in one company vs. another. I want the best mousetrap (for me) possible. So if Apple beats RIM to the market, they get my money.

[ArgonNJ]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

I don't have a rooting interest in one company vs. another. I want the best mousetrap (for me) possible. So if Apple beats RIM to the market, they get my money.

I agree. I chose BB not simply because it was a BB, but because out of all the other technologies, it worked the best. I have owned a Palm, tried Win Mobile and out of those 3, BB won out. The iphone looks good, but ATT won't work for me, so BB is still the best option. Its not a spiritual thing, like some BB users, but simply the best choice for me.

[Blackberryer]

By the way, in response to th question "Will RIM wait?", the answer is obviously "YES". Otherwise I and many others wouldn't be getting so pissed off.

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

Perhaps I will. But the thing is, unlike you, I don't have a rooting interest in one company vs. another. I want the best mousetrap (for me) possible. So if Apple beats RIM to the market, they get my money.

I don't understand the assumptions and personal attacks. Your post set up a simple question for me. You are looking at features available on other devices, which you admit you don't require, but you think to yourself, They have it, why can't I? I ask if that is representative of the consumer market and what it possibly means for RIM and the blackberry if they are chasing that market.

I have no rooting interest in one company versus another. I too am buying the device that best meets my needs, and what I do have a rooting interest in is that device being available in the future. If the blackberry as we know it disappears because it is diluted by the consumer market into nothingness, there is no alternative as far as I'm concerned. So, it's fair to speculate on these things and ask questions along these lines. It is not an attack on you.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

I don't understand the assumptions and personal attacks. Your post set up a simple question for me. You are looking at features available on other devices, which you admit you don't require, but you think to yourself, They have it, why can't I? I ask if that is representative of the consumer market and what it possibly means for RIM and the blackberry if they are chasing that market.

I have no rooting interest in one company versus another. I too am buying the device that best meets my needs, and what I do have a rooting interest in is that device being available in the future. If the blackberry as we know it disappears because it is diluted by the consumer market into nothingness, there is no alternative as far as I'm concerned. So, it's fair to speculate on these things and ask questions along these lines. It is not an attack on you.

"Require" simply means that I do not have to have it in my everyday life, but would prefer to have it. The point from my first post on has been this: if other devices offer these features, and can do everything a BB does as well, what is the advantage to a BB then? THAT has been the point.

By the way, let me add that most of the people who visit these forums are clearly BlackBerry enthusiasts, and they seem to be screaming loudest about these features. So here's another question: is BlackBerry ignoring their own rabid fanbase?

[Jagga]

Interesting things you state ... i'd like to cut up your post to highlight a few if you will allow me pls.

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

... And whomever is responsible for VZW's slow adaption should be beaten about the head with a Treo.
....
....

So I'll now ask you:

Other than PUSH, what is the advantage to a BB vs. so many other smartphones out there?

First off I'm glad your CHOOSING a device for YOU. Many ppl let OTHERS choose a device for them; as if the corporation is paying for it & sending it out when its not.

Now VZW is not at fault actually nor is RIM. Look to the technology of the network, CDMA, and look to WHOM controls it. Hint its NOT the providers. Look to Qualcomm. Proprietary chipsets that they own the patent on for CDMA. Currently their in a patent war, and VERY few others make chipsets thats compatible for that radio - Nokia being one of them cannot proceed as the have their own antitrust battles for 3yrs running, while Broadcomm is at new fronts with Qualcomm with Quali on the loosing end, atm. I'm VERY surprised how short of a time the 8830 got released after the 8800 debuted. Less than 6 mths if I'm not mistaken. VZW IS responsible for no GPS navigation though. RIM responsible for taking soo long open up API's and 3rd party not wishing to satisfy our needs for maps by state/province, region, country, timezone to be downloaded & saved to he MicroSD card to be called up to the BB OS App with only updates & changes on the mapp to be selectable as an option to DL over the provider network. it goes against their revenue streams.

Finally to answer to ur question on "Other than PUSH, what is the advantage to a BB vs. so many other smartphones out there?"

I guide you to my following post:
http://www.blackberryforums.com/gene...tml#post621788
Post#3.

Also,
* Rebuilding firmware is a BREEZE & very stable operation!
* Navigation is excellent in icons & menus > I see ONLY SonyEricsson being better.
* Icons are nice & pleasing to the eye - you only stare a them a couple hundred times a mth, right? Windows Mobile 6 Pro/STand has been using the same god awful looking icons since PPC2002 days. its time to make them 3 dimensional already.
* anyone else wanna chime in?

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

"Require" simply means that I do not have to have it in my everyday life, but would prefer to have it. The point from my first post on has been this: if other devices offer these features, and can do everything a BB does as well, what is the advantage to a BB then? THAT has been the point.

To *your* point, then, if the only advantage of the BB, as far as you are concerned, is the push email, which isn't important to you, and other devices offer you features you would like to have on a phone, then it would be pointless for you to stick with the BB. Seems a trivial question, too me. Don't be offended if someone hopes RIM doesn't fall on its sword trying to keep you as a customer.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by Jagga

Interesting things you state ... i'd like to cut up your post to highlight a few if you will allow me pls.



First off I'm glad your CHOOSING a device for YOU. Many ppl let OTHERS choose a device for them; as if the corporation is paying for it & sending it out when its not.

Now VZW is not at fault actually nor is RIM. Look to the technology of the network, CDMA, and look to WHOM controls it. Hint its NOT the providers. Look to Qualcomm. Proprietary chipsets that they own the patent on for CDMA. Currently their in a patent war, and VERY few others make chipsets thats compatible for that radio - Nokia being one of them cannot proceed as the have their own antitrust battles for 3yrs running, while Broadcomm is at new fronts with Qualcomm with Quali on the loosing end, atm. I'm VERY surprised how short of a time the 8830 got released after the 8800 debuted. Less than 6 mths if I'm not mistaken. VZW IS responsible for no GPS navigation though. RIM responsible for taking soo long open up API's and 3rd party not wishing to satisfy our needs for maps by state/province, region, country, timezone to be downloaded & saved to he MicroSD card to be called up to the BB OS App with only updates & changes on the mapp to be selectable as an option to DL over the provider network. it goes against their revenue streams.

Finally to answer to ur question on "Other than PUSH, what is the advantage to a BB vs. so many other smartphones out there?"

I guide you to my following post:
http://www.blackberryforums.com/gene...tml#post621788
Post#3.

Also,
* Rebuilding firmware is a BREEZE & very stable operation!
* Navigation is excellent in icons & menus > I see ONLY SonyEricsson being better.
* Icons are nice & pleasing to the eye - you only stare a them a couple hundred times a mth, right? Windows Mobile 6 Pro/STand has been using the same god awful looking icons since PPC2002 days. its time to make them 3 dimensional already.
* anyone else wanna chime in?

First, thanks for the info. Very good stuff. Obviously I agree that BB is the best of the bunch, otherwise I would have stuck with the Treo.

What I keep coming back to is that the things it does well are done well by other phones too, and those phones have more features that I would find myself using. And the things they don't do as well, the dropoff isn't noticeable enough to make a difference to me.

Look at the networks, for instance. I get fantastic coverage from virtually all the providers in my area. Verizon's voice clarity, because of CDMA, is the best. However, that doesn't mean that AT&T's is awful, just not as good. But is it good enough? Yes, I think so. The only reason I didn't switch to a Curve is because the camera alone wasn't enough to warrent downgrading voice a little. However, if the Curve had, say, WiFi and GPS? Done deal. I don't even look back at Verizon, and I pay the ETF with a big grin on my face (okay, maybe not).

So this isn't about arguing that the iPhone or any phone is better than a BlackBerry. It's about making the point that they could be just as good, with more to offer. And the stuff that BB gets phenomenally right just isn't stuff that makes a huge enough difference to keep me away from someone else.

This is what's also slowly driving me away from Verizon. I love the network, I love the customer service. I don't love the pricing, the crippling of devices. SO - if AT&T offers an *almost* as good experience for me, with better pricing and more features, what will keep me at Verizon? For myself, the answer is "nothing".

My personal preference? Verizon releases a Curve-like device that gives me either WiFi and/or GPS.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

To *your* point, then, if the only advantage of the BB, as far as you are concerned, is the push email, which isn't important to you, and other devices offer you features you would like to have on a phone, then it would be pointless for you to stick with the BB. Seems a trivial question, too me. Don't be offended if someone hopes RIM doesn't fall on its sword trying to keep you as a customer.

It doesn't offend me. I just find the logic lacking. I, unlike you, don't assume that offering these features guarantees a downturn in quality for RIM's products. Yes, as consumers, we can have our cake and eat it too.

[Berry One]

Originally Posted by Blackberryer

Of course folks who just want a phone should only buy a phone. Why would those people be interested in BlackBerrys or any other type of smart phone?

Let me try again.

There are people who buy cell phones to do phone calls. They can pay more to get less as long as less is exactly what they need.

When it comes to blackberries, they are for people who want email, now. I want device which can survive through the day, at least, on battery, with PUSH email. I buy blackberry.

The conversation we're having is about consumers who are interested in smart phones and whether or not BB's need to adopt more features to be/stay competitive in the consumer market.

All these features you want: WiFi, camera, a music + video iPod, GPS- they are battery killers. Even 3G is.
You ask longer battery life and all gizmos you can get- this ain't gonna happen.

RIM must choose and I am sure they do it every day, what feature they can squeeze in blackberry for the cost of battery life.

It is not a rocket science to take 8820 (WiFi, GPS, music), slap camera on it and some fancy video playing interface. Nothing is revolutionary here, can be done.

If RIM haven't done it yet, they don't see their market in people who can tolerate battery drained in 2 hours. If you work from home you may not care, but mobile professionals RIM targets will sure do.

[Blackberryer]

Originally Posted by Berry One

If RIM haven't done it yet, they don't see their market in people who can tolerate battery drained in 2 hours. If you work from home you may not care, but mobile professionals RIM targets will sure do.

Right, except RIM is trying to target consumers now as well. If the mobile professional market were RIM's only concern, we wouldn't be having this conversation.