[bsic]

Watch this if you havent, it explains exactly what it does differently:
Apple - QuickTime - Macworld 2007 Keynote

Personally, what *I* think is innovative (my *opinion*!):

Features:
- Multitouch. I dont know why some are saying you need to type onehanded, i dont see that mentioned in apple's demo or releases.
- Full screen web browsing- i have yet to find this on any smartphone- including the ability to zoom in/out.
- Photo browsing seems cool, the way the albums can be searched and browsed.
- "pinching" to zoom in and out. It really cant get any easier than this.
- Largest and most high-resolution screen currently out there for a smartphone, great for widescreen video. For me this is great, for others, maybe not. I doubt business users would find this a must have.
- Overall UI looks nice, a lot more user friendly and intuitive than WM or Symbian, and more functional since you arent tied to a specific number of softkeys. With this UI, the buttons change and appear/disappear depending on the app, gives great flexibility to development.
- Visual voicemail. I dont see anyone else out there with this.
- Coverflow, Ipod integration. Dont see any UI out there with coverflow, or such a cool way to browse music. Not innovative or necessary for business users, again... but I find it innovative.
- Awesome integration with google/google maps. The demo looks really hot.

But alas, again... its not all about features. What has historically set Apple apart is not having more features than the competitors, but rather an easy, fun to use UI without losing the functionality in the process. I really dont see Symbian/WM/BB OS's that are this robust. But who knows will be out in a few months.

If they dont have a solution for exchange users and push email, i wont drop a dime. If they do have a solution, Im sure ill give it a shot after seeing what field reviews/user opinions surface a month or two after release. It seems pretty nice to me.

[Jack T. Chance]

Originally Posted by bsic

Wow-- at first i thought this was just stubborn BB users angry that a better product may be on the horizon and stubborn to see things objectively. But it turns out it people that hate the product just because they have a grudge against a company that is trying to innovate and change things.

And I can see that you've been so successfully brainwashed by the glitz and hype of the Apple marketing campaign, that all you can do is make insults against the BlackBerry faithful for not deciding to just jump ship because Uncle Steve-o has come up with a new toy to prove to the world how cool he is!

I'm sorry, but there's a reason most of us use BlackBerries! We were dissatisfied with the rest, so now we use THE BEST! End of story!

And on another note, your strategy of throwing around insults instead of actually replying to the FACTS presented by others is getting really old! For example, you've completely ignored the issues I raised in the post below:

Originally Posted by Jack T. Chance

There's LOTS of iPhone™ news this week that I'm not seeing mentioned too much in this thread, so I'd like to touch on that stuff now.

Phone Scoop has put up their report about the iPhone™, and they have very interesting info to share, including this paragraph:

Very interesting, wouldn't you agree?

Also, the biggest iPhone™-related story of the week is the fact that Apple has been SUED by Cisco for infringing on THEIR copyright/trademark for the iPhone™ name!

Here's some links where you can read more about it:
-Cisco sues Apple for trademark infringement: ruh roh!
-Apple says Cisco lawsuit is "silly"

So, bottom line, Apple is so arrogant and full of themselves, they think they can get away with stealing the name of a product that's been available for several years! Ooh, I can't WAIT for a judge to lay the smackdown on Steve Jobs and company for this one!

BTW, Cisco has owned the copyright/trademark in question since 2000, but that's because in 2000, they bought the company that originally filed for the ©/™. The ©/™ would actually have been ISSUED before 2000, although I don't yet know the date that it was issued. So, it's not like someone secured that protection recently, once it was known that Apple was developing this product. The existing product of the same name pre-dates Apple's product by several years. Open & shut case, if you ask me!

So, Mr. bsic, what do you have to say about that?

P.S. I've just learned that the existing ©/™ has been in existence for 11 years! So, Apple really doesn't have much of a legal leg to stand on, in my opinion. But ultimately, it will be up to a judge to render the final verdict in the case. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if Cisco manges to get an initial injunction issued to prevent Apple from using the iPhone™ name while the court case is ongoing.

[ceebz]

What's with all this hype about Google Maps on the iPhone? How is spreading your fingers apart on a touch screen more intuitive than pressing "i" on a keyboard?

I must be the only one who's worked with tablet pc's/UMPC, as I've been using Apple's "innovations" for the past two years.

"Multitouch", this has been available on tablet pc's for months.

[bsic]

Originally Posted by ceebz

What's with all this hype about Google Maps on the iPhone? How is spreading your fingers apart on a touch screen more intuitive than pressing "i" on a keyboard?

I must be the only one who's worked with tablet pc's/UMPC, as I've been using Apple's "innovations" for the past two years.

"Multitouch", this has been available on tablet pc's for months.

Maybe so, but i havent seen it on a mobile phone.

[bsic]

Originally Posted by Jack T. Chance

And on another note, your strategy of throwing around insults instead of actually replying to the FACTS presented by others is getting really old! For example, you've completely ignored the issues I raised in the post below:So, Mr. bsic, what do you have to say about that?

Personally, i dont care what its named. Im not buying it for the name.

And lastly, I have said i may or may not get it, its looks cool, and maybe ill grab one. Ive also said i think RIM has a foothold on business users and that isnt likely going to change. And i get people responding that "oh you bought the apple magic act", "that phone isnt any real innovation", "i can get the same out of a 2,000 tablet PC..."..

Look, if the thought of me possibly going out and buying one, or admiring the features in a demo bothers you THIS much... Just stay with your blackberry, no need to get so fired up when others are impressed with a demo and state thier opnion. No one is going to pry your BB out of your hands. I dont see why some are so defensive...

You get the last word bro, this is awful silly.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by bsic

"Multitouch", this has been available on tablet pc's for months.

Maybe so, but i havent seen it on a mobile phone.

To me, therein lies the crux of the matter. I'm not impressed with the iPhone overall, and have said as much here previously. BUT, let me say that I think if you want a multimedia, music/videos/photos/mobile web browser widget, then its absolutely the BEST thing I've seen for that use. Not surprising, that's a market that Apple knows WELL, and I think they've addressed it very well with this device. What I, and many others are skeptical about, is how well it does as a smartphone, with an emphasis on phone calls, business email and text messaging.

So, in that light, let me address your comments about all the innovations you mention - within RED below:

Originally Posted by bsic

Watch this if you havent, it explains exactly what it does differently:
Apple - QuickTime - Macworld 2007 Keynote
With all due respect, Apple's launch marketing extravaganza is NOT the best, objective, unbiased evaluation of what the device can do!

Personally, what *I* think is innovative (my *opinion*!):

Features:
- Multitouch. I dont know why some are saying you need to type onehanded, i dont see that mentioned in apple's demo or releases.
Well, it WAS mentioned in Apple's demo, because Jobs demos it in exactly that manner. I give Apple LOTS of credit for putting UNPARALLELED effort into the launch event to show the device in its best possible light - including how Jobs chose to demo typing on it.
- Full screen web browsing- i have yet to find this on any smartphone- including the ability to zoom in/out.
Agreed - great web browser - primary function of multimedia consumer device, not primary function I use in a smartphone.
- Photo browsing seems cool, the way the albums can be searched and browsed.
Again, great - but not what I buy a phone for - I guarantee you I can search, browse and display photos MUCH better on my 19" widescreen LCD display. But in a portable device, if photo browsing/displaying is more important than telephone/email, this is the winner!
- "pinching" to zoom in and out. It really cant get any easier than this.
For photos, web browsing, etc - great - but how does this help me while on a phone call or sending/receiving email??
- Largest and most high-resolution screen currently out there for a smartphone, great for widescreen video. For me this is great, for others, maybe not. I doubt business users would find this a must have.
:shrug: Again, yes - great multimedia device, says very little to me about its capability as a good smart phone. At home, I watch video on my HDTV - on the road, I watch it on my notebook with a MUCH bigger screen than this thing.
- Overall UI looks nice, a lot more user friendly and intuitive than WM or Symbian, and more functional since you arent tied to a specific number of softkeys. With this UI, the buttons change and appear/disappear depending on the app, gives great flexibility to development.
THAT is the #1 thing I'm skeptical about - again, as a phone, not a multimedia consumer widget. The three TOP functions I need my smartphone are - phone, email and SMS. If the UI sucks for those, I don't care HOW good it is for multimedia useage. And a "soft" virtual keyboard on a touchscreen, with no tactile feedback, no way to "feel" which key you're hitting, and a good chance of hitting more than one at once with a fingertip - is NOT a good UI for typing - that's been proven over and over again on tablets and UMPC's. So my opinion is - GREAT UI for multimedia and web browsing - LOUSY UI for typing emails and text messages. Again - what primary use did I buy my smartphone for???
- Visual voicemail. I dont see anyone else out there with this.
Hey, I actually liked that - nice feature, hope RIM picks up on that one!
- Coverflow, Ipod integration. Dont see any UI out there with coverflow, or such a cool way to browse music. Not innovative or necessary for business users, again... but I find it innovative.
Yep, you hit it again exactly - great music/iPod machine - but says NOTHING about whether its any good as a smartphone.
- Awesome integration with google/google maps. The demo looks really hot.
Ho hum - multimedia/browsing again - AND I have close to the same "awesome integration" with google and google maps today on my BlackBerry - and the improvements from larger screen and anything else I'll easily do without if its not a great phone and email machine first!

But alas, again... its not all about features. What has historically set Apple apart is not having more features than the competitors, but rather an easy, fun to use UI without losing the functionality in the process. I really dont see Symbian/WM/BB OS's that are this robust. But who knows will be out in a few months.
"Easy, fun to use UI" for multimedia and browsing, absolutely - but they haven't convinced me that a soft touchscreen keyboard is an "easy, fun to use UI" for typing - not even close.

If they dont have a solution for exchange users and push email, i wont drop a dime. If they do have a solution, Im sure ill give it a shot after seeing what field reviews/user opinions surface a month or two after release. It seems pretty nice to me.
They DO have a solution for push email - with emphasis on A solution. You can have push email using your yahoo email. Again, I give Apple credit for showing this at its absolute best during the launch event and keynote demo. If they HAD any other push email, they'd have said so. The fact that they said they have yahoo push email and didn't say a single word about any other push capability speaks for itself.

In summary - if you're looking for a multimedia music/videos/photos/mobile web browser device - this is without a doubt THE absolute best one I've ever seen - great innovations, a real step forward from anything out there. If I have a single converged smartphone that can do that stuff that well, then for the 10-20% of the time I'd spend doing that stuff on my PHONE, this thing would ROCK! But for the 80%+ that I spend doing phone calls, email and text messaging, it honestly appears to be LESS than the capability I have today on my 8700c. And I'd never give up the capability I have for 80% of my usage, to get a stunning, revolutionary device to use for the other 20%.

[thegiftedone]

I am not going to put down anybody because they both have there advantages and disadvantages. Battery life is a big issue for me, and if I am out chillin listening to my music with a 5 hour life; what is it going to be when I use the phone? I do a lot of email in the mortgage industry, so I am curious of how well the iphone will fare with a touch screen. For the berry I am concerned with the memory but I think it has an SD slot: correct me if I am wrong. I myself and getting the 8800 but I do like MAC's stablility over windows though but 5 hours?!

[anthonymoody]

What's most intriguing to me about all the saying of nay in this thread and elsewhere is how short peoples memories are. If you went back 6 years to the introduction of the very first, 5 gig HD based iPod, and read through the numerous, massively long threads wherein its merits were debated, you could substitute iPhone for iPod, and vice versa in threads like this one, and read the exact same thing. (I know because I took part in many of those threads)

The iPod/iPhone is too this (expensive, big, heavy), not enough that (speed, battery life, applications, expandability, storage), won't be good at this (email, messaging), lacks that (hard keyboard, removable battery, fm tuner, gps), is a closed, proprietary system with unproven software, and on and on and on.

And we all know how the mp3 player market turned out, don't we?

One of you will surely point out how comparing the music player market to the smart phone market (particularly for business customers) is apples to oranges. And rightfully so.

But to not have learned from history... Tsk tsk.

Clearly my opinion, but the iPhone will be a *massive* commercial success. We'll all know when Apple announces its Q3 CY '07 numbers.

TM

TM

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by anthonymoody

One of you will surely point out how comparing the music player market to the smart phone market (particularly for business customers) is apples to oranges. And rightfully so.

Well, no, not exactly. What I will point out is that market *timing* here is dramatically different. History will show you that over and over and over again, being EARLY to a market and therefore being able to help DEFINE the market from the beginning gives you a much better chance for success than entering a 30 year old, well defined market and hoping to completely change it. "To not have learned from history... Tsk, tsk."

Originally Posted by anthonymoody

Clearly my opinion, but the iPhone will be a *massive* commercial success. We'll all know when Apple announces its Q3 CY '07 numbers.

You should really email Steve Jobs and let him know the good news! Because he seems to think that he has a niche device that he's hoping to gain 1% market share with (not by the end of Q3 CY 07 though), according to the numbers he presented. Or is 1% market share how you happen to define "*massive* commercial success"???

[bsic]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Well, no, not exactly. What I will point out is that market *timing* here is dramatically different. History will show you that over and over and over again, being EARLY to a market and therefore being able to help DEFINE the market from the beginning gives you a much better chance for success than entering a 30 year old, well defined market and hoping to completely change it. "To not have learned from history... Tsk, tsk."


You should really email Steve Jobs and let him know the good news! Because he seems to think that he has a niche device that he's hoping to gain 1% market share with (not by the end of Q3 CY 07 though), according to the numbers he presented. Or is 1% market share how you happen to define "*massive* commercial success"???

1% = 10Billion = massive success, IMO

[bsic]

Originally Posted by thegiftedone

I am not going to put down anybody because they both have there advantages and disadvantages. Battery life is a big issue for me, and if I am out chillin listening to my music with a 5 hour life; what is it going to be when I use the phone? I do a lot of email in the mortgage industry, so I am curious of how well the iphone will fare with a touch screen. For the berry I am concerned with the memory but I think it has an SD slot: correct me if I am wrong. I myself and getting the 8800 but I do like MAC's stablility over windows though but 5 hours?!

its 5hr talk time, 12 hr music playback.

[Jack T. Chance]

Originally Posted by bsic

1% = 10Billion = massive success, IMO

You honestly think that 1% of the cell phone market = $10 billion?

Wow! I don't know WHAT you're smoking, but keep it the hell away from me!

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by bsic

1% = 10Billion = massive success, IMO

1%= 10 Billion??? Umm, I'm not sure what kind of math you're using, but that would place the total cell phone market at 1 TRILLION units (or dollars, take your pick), and well, lets just say that that's drastically, wildly incorrect.

Originally Posted by bsic

its 5hr talk time, 12 hr music playback.

And according to info from the launch, 16 hour max battery life period. Anyone around here used to charging your phone more than once in a 24 hour period these days? Anyone? Nope, didn't think so. Of course, guess you could just put in an extended battery, like you can with virtually any cell phone on the market these days. Oh, wait, the battery in this thing is non-removable and non-replaceable. Nevermind.

[Galvatron]

That really al it is a niche. Really bad one at that. From. A marketers tand point. This is going to be difficult to sell. Its just apples weak attempt to blow the mpr player markert out an try an grab mobile dollers sure they have a decent media player. But margins in the smarthphone ar a differnt scale

[Jack T. Chance]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

1%= 10 Billion??? Umm, I'm not sure what kind of math you're using, but that would place the total cell phone market at 1 TRILLION units (or dollars, take your pick), and well, lets just say that that's drastically, wildly incorrect.

Exactly! I just did the math...
In the USA, at last count, there were roughly 150 million cell phone subscribers. 1% of that market would be 1,500,000 people. Personally, I don't think Apple will succeed in selling a $600 phone to that many people. But if they DID, in order to take in $10 billion from 1.5 million suckers... er, I mean subscribers... ... Apple would have to sell each and every iPhone™ for the kingly sum of... are you sitting down?... $6,666.67!!!

And you thought only Vertu made phones that expensive! LOL!!!!

At any rate, I'm guessing bsic didn't do very well in math class!

And all those sixes prove just one thing: Steve Jobs is The Devil! LOL!!!

Or maybe bsic is!

[DanUC6]

This poll should be strictly 8800 vs. iPhone and see if the outcome is different. Someone create a new one with just these two. No other choices!!!

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by bsic

Wow-- at first i thought this was just stubborn BB users angry that a better product may be on the horizon and stubborn to see things objectively. But it turns out it people that hate the product just because they have a grudge against a company that is trying to innovate and change things.

It's just ferrin to them. Their only weaponry is pitchforks and torches and the message, 'Be Afraid! Be Afraid! You can only trust us! Fear is your friend! Be Afraid!

[bsic]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

1%= 10 Billion??? Umm, I'm not sure what kind of math you're using, but that would place the total cell phone market at 1 TRILLION units (or dollars, take your pick), and well, lets just say that that's drastically, wildly incorrect.

Oops, your right. According to the keynote, and forbes, 1% = 10Million units. How much profit they make from each unit is up for debate, but analysts are saying 6.5Billion. Not 10Billion, but still "massive" in my very humble opinion.

link:
Financial Times Business News: Apple unlikely to steal plum position - MSN Money

And according to info from the launch, 16 hour max battery life period. Anyone around here used to charging your phone more than once in a 24 hour period these days? Anyone? Nope, didn't think so. Of course, guess you could just put in an extended battery, like you can with virtually any cell phone on the market these days. Oh, wait, the battery in this thing is non-removable and non-replaceable. Nevermind.

Actually, thanks for pointing this out. The launch said 5hr talk and *16*hour browsing/video playback... i never heard 24hrs mentioned in the entire keynote. Check here also:

Apple - iPhone - High Technology - Tech Specs

[flash24]

8800 hands down

[Jack T. Chance]

Originally Posted by bsic

Oops, your right.

First off, the word is "you're". It's a contraction of "you are".

According to the keynote, and forbes, 1% = 10Million units. How much profit they make from each unit is up for debate, but analysts are saying 6.5Billion. Not 10Billion, but still "massive" in my very humble opinion.

Secondly, revising your estimate to the more "humble" figure of $6.5 billion, your math STILL doesn't add up right! To make 6.5 billion, they'd have to sell 1.5 million units at $4,333.34 each, still in the stratospheric price range of phones made by Vertu!

Since basic math fails you, let me try this:
$600 x 1,500,000 = $900,000,000. $900 Million. Not shabby, but still not even a full billion. And that's just the total money taken in at a retail cost of $600. The actual PROFIT would be much less than $900 million once the manufacturing, marketing, packaging, and distribution costs were subtracted out. Guess you've never worked in retail.

And I doubt Apple will even sell 1.5 million units. It's too much of a niche product to capture even 1% of the US cell phone market, IMHO. But I could be wrong on that. Time will tell, it always does.

P.S. If they're estimating 1% market share as 10 million units sold, they're GREATLY overestimating the market's total size. That would indicate a total market size of 1 billion users. While there may be 1 billion cell phone users worldwide, it's already known that this iPhonexxx8482; will NOT do well in Asia, as their phones are already advanced enough to make Apple's new phone a technological dinosaur from day one! And Europe's interest will likely be lower, as well.